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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Smear tests to subordinate women

614 replies

sakura · 06/07/2011 04:30

I have been looking at the recent threads about compulsory smear tests in Poland, and I have to say, it doesn'T surprise me that they're compulsory in some countries. THis is a natural, inevitable, progression from the actual purpose of screening.

[Oh, did you think smear tests were about saving women's lives?!?!]

wildkittydear made an excellent point (I hope she doesn't mind me quoting her}
"It is shocking that Poland is thinking of making very personal medical examinations for women compulsory. I personally am very offended by the way only breast and cervical cancer are championed as the only killers of women and I know that is an exaggeration!! but do you get my drift? Some illnesses get priority in the media and I am not convinced there is always a benign reason for this."

Yes, Womanhood is the "problem" to be cured. Women's organs that are seen as faulty-- because men don't have them. Not male = pathology.

The truth is that women's bodies are much, much healthier than men's because we have two Xs in our chromozomal make up and each X contains lots of life-preserving genes, whereas the Y is slightly pitiful by comparison.
This is why women live longer and why boys are more like to be born with chromozomal abnormalities or die when they get sick. Girls tend to recover.
The extra X gives women the biological upper hand.

Men don't really know how to look after their bodies either, in a general sense (healthy diet etc)

Considering this, it's really important to question why the medical fraternity is obsessed with getting women to their tests and not men. Men are more likely to contract all sorts of diseases and cancers, and much earlier in their life than women too.

But men are trusted to look after their own bodies and decide for themselves whether they want to be screened or not. There is no goverment promoted mass-screening programme of testicular cancer, for example. BEcause testicles belong to men, and are therefore regarded as "healthy until proven otherwize"Men are not frightened, coerced or cajolled into being screened because there is no obsession with controlling them.

THe history of medicine teaches us that women, and by default their sex specific organs, are regarded as defective and pathalogical. (when if any sex is defective, it is the male sex due to the Y, which renders them biologicaly more vulnerable to disease in a number of ways)

Greer has covered this in detail in The Whole Woman. She has examined the evidence which shows that cervical screening has done nothing to save women's lives.
Women are still dying from cervical cancer. Although the rate of cervical cancer has been dropping , that is not because of screening, but because because it was actually dropping naturally before mass screening was invented, and continues to drop at the same rate.

Often mistakes are made in the laboratories, and there have been cases of women who actually had healthy cervixes being treated for cancer, and women who had cancer were missed, and ended up dying.

As I said, the point is not to actually save women's lives, but to get women to comply, to STFU and to be penetrated by gynelogical instruments.I don'T get screened, because I've looked at the statistics and found that, despite screening, women are still dying of cervical cancer so the margin for human error in the tests is too great.

Which brings me to another important question. WTF are men doing in gynecology anyway? I mean, WhyTF are they even there? In the room? Sticking bits of metal into women? Researching vaginas, when it's not their place to do so? THe funding should go to female scientists and doctors [but that's for another thread]

I haven't had a smear test for over ten years. WHen I had my first at 18 the results came back telling me I needed to go for a re-test for possible cancerous cells. I went back, had another check, the second time it came back clear (after me scaring myself to death). After doing research I learned that if you have had sperm or even your period (if you'd just finished it) can interfere with the findings, making it look as though there may be cancerous cells when there aren't.

WHat a joke. And the joke's on women. And I haven't been back since.

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sakura · 06/07/2011 10:41

Grimma
It was you who started going on about the History of Gynecology when you started talking about Polish history. I simply gave you a link to show you that the UK also has a horrendous history

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sakura · 06/07/2011 10:40

Viva I understand that men might want to go into the profession because of XYZ, but those are the very same reasons that women would want to go into it. They're taking the place of a woman.

Considering the disgusting history of gynecology in the UK alone, and the torture perpetrated by men in this field, isn't it time that men took a step back from this "rewarding" field and allowed women to take over the research and treatment?

I think men have dominated gynecology long enough.

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TrillianAstra · 06/07/2011 10:40

If you want to have a sane discussion on how women's health care differs from men's, or on the ethics of compulsory health checks, I suggest you start again.

GrimmaTheNome · 06/07/2011 10:37

That's a truly nasty piece of history, but as that was repealed in 1886 I don't really think it needs digging up in this context.

My point was simply that if a country has a culture of compulsory screening, then gendered conditions may figure in that.

I think compulsory screening for non-communicable diseases is entirely wrong, however I'm sceptical that there's any specifically anti-woman agenda in this.

Reality · 06/07/2011 10:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sakura · 06/07/2011 10:37

I still don't understand WTF men are doing in gynecology.

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VivaLeBeaver · 06/07/2011 10:37

I think that male doctors go into gynaecology as it's one of the most varied and rewarding specialisms in medicine.

There's a lot of surgery involved without having to be a surgeon which is an attraction, a lot of general medicine, oncology and because most gynaes are also obstetricians then there's all the obstetric side of things.

sakura · 06/07/2011 10:35

Thanks jetgirl Smile

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sakura · 06/07/2011 10:35

Hi Shirley, all I'm asking is to please consider the argument. yes that line was badly phrased.

I'm not the Polish Government, or any government. It's not as though I actually have any power. It's not as though anyone but a few mums are even going to read this.

But as I said, I haven't just pulled the argument out of my arse.

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jetgirl · 06/07/2011 10:34

sakura - the word is gynecological, not gynelogical, btw.

winnybella · 06/07/2011 10:34

Forkful, that's what she said:

'As I said, the point is not to actually save women's lives, but to get women to comply, to STFU and to be penetrated by gynelogical instruments'

ShirleyKnot · 06/07/2011 10:32

I think there is probably a debate to be had regarding the way that womens' heath care differs from the care that men receive.

But when you start a post with:

"[Oh, did you think smear tests were about saving women's lives?!?!]"

Then I feel a) patronised and b)fucked off. I don't really give a tiny shiny shit as to the politics of cervical screening TBH, I'm just grateful that if I'm unlucky enough to get cervical cancer, that it might be caught in time for me not to die from it.

jetgirl · 06/07/2011 10:32

Can you explain why fundraising for research into women's cancers appears to be more fashionable (for want of a better word) than that for men's cancers. I for one find it deeply frustrating that there is far less awareness among men of the need for prostate and testicular checks, than there is for smears and mammograms among women.

winnybella · 06/07/2011 10:31

I think if you're telling other women that cervical screening is useless and the only reason for it is so that male doctors can rape women with metal instruments Hmm and so risk convincing some of them of the truth of this (and so risk them not undergoing potentially life saving testing) then you should have researched it a bit by yourself, instead of relying on one book written by someone who is not a health proffessional.

sakura · 06/07/2011 10:30

Ah, Forkful, thank you. The voice of reason.

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sakura · 06/07/2011 10:29

Grimma, don'T get your point. THe U.K has a long history of compulsory gynelogical screening for women.

Contageous Diseases Act

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forkful · 06/07/2011 10:29

OK - really which is worse. The thought that politicians (i.e. people in power) are thinking of bringing in compulsory cervical screening in an EU country (plus other restrictions to abortions) - and in the US repeated moves to try to make abortion as difficult as possible/ban it

or

Sakura's post???

So regardless of what you think of the post - which is an opinion from someone not in power Wink. Please let's concentrate on what losing control over our bodies means for women as a group.

Surely others have read about the biological "fragility" of the Y chromosome? There is a lot of evidence for this. Mentioned all over the place - Dawkins etc.

The opinion that men often don't take care of their health - a generalisation for use - but probably applicable in some sectors of men (beer drinking/fatty foods = heart attacks etc).

Has anyone on this thread read anything about the medicalisation of birth/ "women's problems". See info on Hysteria.

IMO it's completely valid for us to look at why men are gynocologists. This doesn't mean that Sakura saying this will lead to instant unemployment for all male gynocologists. What's shocking is that it took so long for women to be allowed to practice medicine and that opportunities for career breaks and part time working at senior levels are difficult to manage in a medical career.

Really would it be so strange if in the future we got to a point where gynocology was 100% a female discipline and sure anything penis/testicles related was treated by male doctors? The benefits to women as a group could be amazing and far out weigh the disbenefits of future males who desire a glittering career in this area. Hmm

I have seen discussions that breast screening has no impact on outcomes etc.

Personally I do go for smear tests but seriously please everyone on this thread - imagine that YOU DO NOT WANT A SMEAR - but YOU ARE FORCED TO HAVE ONE. Angry Sad

I don't think that Sakura is trying to persuade us not to have smear tests - she is alerting us to possible problems with them whilst pointing out whether we have control over our own bodies or not is a key feminist issue. (Have I got that right Sakura?)

Goes off to buy copy of the whole women.

sakura · 06/07/2011 10:27

winny

Honestly, I can't be arsed hunting it down, but obviously Greer has referenced all the studies in book.
Feel free to read it.

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GrimmaTheNome · 06/07/2011 10:27

From a quick google, it looks like Poland may do compulsory screening for various ungendered conditions too.

So, might this issue really be an artefact of a historically authoritarian regime trying to improve public health? No some sinister anti-women plot...

sakura · 06/07/2011 10:26

Anyway, why are people dissing young women? Not all of them fall for the feminists are man-haters trope. Some of them can, actually, see that society does wrong by women, and something needs to be done

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winnybella · 06/07/2011 10:26

Sakura

I'm asking again for a link to studies showing that increased cervical screening has not decreased rates/deaths from cervical cancer in the last few decades.

I am not interested in what Germaine Greer has to say on the subject, but would rather like to see some solid research saying that smear tests are totally useless.

Thank you.

sakura · 06/07/2011 10:23

Butlinsbabe

Young women don't identify with feminism because men don't like feminism, and because feminists are trashed in the media ( unless the "feminists" in question don't actual do anything that works against men's interests. So-called feminists who promote the sex-industry get enormous platforms in popular culture. Of course they do! THey'Re working in men's interests! For free!)

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verylittlecarrot · 06/07/2011 10:22

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Message deleted by Mumsnet.

sakura · 06/07/2011 10:20

Molly, if this is just about personal issues with smear tests, why is it that one of today's most prominent feminists, Germaine Greer, has written extensively on this subject.

As I said, thank you for crediting me with inventing this theory myself.... but my brains actually not that big!

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sakura · 06/07/2011 10:19

another must-read is Barbara Ehrenreich's SMile or Die, which is all about the misogyny and misinformation that Breast cancer sufferers are forced to navigate. Men who fall sick are not patronized the way that women are.

Questions need to be asked about the way entire cultures regard women's bodies, compared to how they see men's.

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