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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Smear tests to subordinate women

614 replies

sakura · 06/07/2011 04:30

I have been looking at the recent threads about compulsory smear tests in Poland, and I have to say, it doesn'T surprise me that they're compulsory in some countries. THis is a natural, inevitable, progression from the actual purpose of screening.

[Oh, did you think smear tests were about saving women's lives?!?!]

wildkittydear made an excellent point (I hope she doesn't mind me quoting her}
"It is shocking that Poland is thinking of making very personal medical examinations for women compulsory. I personally am very offended by the way only breast and cervical cancer are championed as the only killers of women and I know that is an exaggeration!! but do you get my drift? Some illnesses get priority in the media and I am not convinced there is always a benign reason for this."

Yes, Womanhood is the "problem" to be cured. Women's organs that are seen as faulty-- because men don't have them. Not male = pathology.

The truth is that women's bodies are much, much healthier than men's because we have two Xs in our chromozomal make up and each X contains lots of life-preserving genes, whereas the Y is slightly pitiful by comparison.
This is why women live longer and why boys are more like to be born with chromozomal abnormalities or die when they get sick. Girls tend to recover.
The extra X gives women the biological upper hand.

Men don't really know how to look after their bodies either, in a general sense (healthy diet etc)

Considering this, it's really important to question why the medical fraternity is obsessed with getting women to their tests and not men. Men are more likely to contract all sorts of diseases and cancers, and much earlier in their life than women too.

But men are trusted to look after their own bodies and decide for themselves whether they want to be screened or not. There is no goverment promoted mass-screening programme of testicular cancer, for example. BEcause testicles belong to men, and are therefore regarded as "healthy until proven otherwize"Men are not frightened, coerced or cajolled into being screened because there is no obsession with controlling them.

THe history of medicine teaches us that women, and by default their sex specific organs, are regarded as defective and pathalogical. (when if any sex is defective, it is the male sex due to the Y, which renders them biologicaly more vulnerable to disease in a number of ways)

Greer has covered this in detail in The Whole Woman. She has examined the evidence which shows that cervical screening has done nothing to save women's lives.
Women are still dying from cervical cancer. Although the rate of cervical cancer has been dropping , that is not because of screening, but because because it was actually dropping naturally before mass screening was invented, and continues to drop at the same rate.

Often mistakes are made in the laboratories, and there have been cases of women who actually had healthy cervixes being treated for cancer, and women who had cancer were missed, and ended up dying.

As I said, the point is not to actually save women's lives, but to get women to comply, to STFU and to be penetrated by gynelogical instruments.I don'T get screened, because I've looked at the statistics and found that, despite screening, women are still dying of cervical cancer so the margin for human error in the tests is too great.

Which brings me to another important question. WTF are men doing in gynecology anyway? I mean, WhyTF are they even there? In the room? Sticking bits of metal into women? Researching vaginas, when it's not their place to do so? THe funding should go to female scientists and doctors [but that's for another thread]

I haven't had a smear test for over ten years. WHen I had my first at 18 the results came back telling me I needed to go for a re-test for possible cancerous cells. I went back, had another check, the second time it came back clear (after me scaring myself to death). After doing research I learned that if you have had sperm or even your period (if you'd just finished it) can interfere with the findings, making it look as though there may be cancerous cells when there aren't.

WHat a joke. And the joke's on women. And I haven't been back since.

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SardineQueen · 06/07/2011 14:56

Grin I wasn't talking just about smears. About the whole gamut of things that many women have done, including smears.

SaF yes I see that... But I do think that there is something there. Boys go through massive hormonal changes at puberty, have terrible acne, mood problems which can lead to devastating consequences... No-one suggests feeding them hormones though. Why not?

sakura · 06/07/2011 14:55

I don't think those areas are valued SaF, I think they're fetishized. Breasts and wombs. Gynecologists used to whip out women's wombs and ovaries on the flimsiest of pretexts, such as depression , or simply because they weren't compliant enough. I think a lot of lesbians have lost their wombs over the years, as hysterectomy was seen as a cure for all sorts of problems. Problems existing in the heads of men, mainly

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NormanTebbit · 06/07/2011 14:55

I know. Men with their epidurals and c-sections and patriarchal gynaecological instruments, their masks and gloves. The bastards.

ItsNotUnusual · 06/07/2011 14:54

I'd say you're pretty subjugated and controlled when there is a man inserting an implement (invented by another man) into your vagina

I'd say I don't see it that way but I can see why you (or others) would. Also, I don't take it as an assault on my lifestyle, opinion and how I view feminism :)

Which the only reason I got onto this thread.

CinnabarRed · 06/07/2011 14:53

"I can't think of anything my DH is supposed to attend the docs for"

Isn't that, at least in part, age related? My DFather is regularly asked to attend testing at his GP for heart-related matters, prostate checks and blood pressure checks, not to mention a general "well-man" check once per year. My DM has heart checks, mammograms, blood pressure checks and an annual a "well woman" check.

I believe, although would be very willing to stand corrected, that this is because the complaints for which they are being tested tend to occur later in life. Cervical cancer is somewhat unusual in that it affects young women (due to being, at least in part, linked to sexual activity).

I am personally of the view that if there were diseases that predominantly affect young men and for which there were a proven screening programme, then our DPs/DHs would be being called in for testing in the same way as we are for smear tests.

I don't see it as patronising patriarchial medicalisation of women's bodies - if anything I think it reflects a generally failure to provide adequate screening for men.

CoteDAzur · 06/07/2011 14:53

Sakura - re "do you know for certain that Jade Goody didn'T go for her smear tests?"

Worse, she went for the test but then ignored letters urging her to come and have an operation to move precancerous (cancerous?) cells, instead hoping they would go away on their own Hmm

She had said this herself. Feel free to look it up.

sakura · 06/07/2011 14:53

Shirley,

Studies show the Pill may increase risk of cervical cancer by up to 50%

[[
cervicalcancer.about.com/od/riskfactorsandprevention/a/pill_cancerrisk.htm here]]

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Butlinsbabe · 06/07/2011 14:52

Again, bastard men, inventing stuff to help prevent women die from hideous deaths.

I feel pretty uncomfortable when it's a woman sticking it up me fanjo, if I'm honest. I just want warm and gentle hands. They can come with a prick as accessory as long as they're gentle.

swallowedAfly · 06/07/2011 14:52

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Sidge · 06/07/2011 14:51

Gosh this thread is really getting quite bizarre.

Um, I would guess the reason men aren't called for testicular screening is because their testicles are rather more accessible than one's cervix and can be self-examined?

IME men are regularly reminded to check their testicles and to report any symptoms of prostate trouble such as urinary flow problems.

I find it sad that someone might think that by doing smears (I do on average 2-6 on each of my working days) I am being a proponent of subordination and sexual aggression. There was me thinking I was carrying out a health screening tool, similar to monitoring blood pressures or promoting quitting smoking. Y'know, those actions that promote good health.

sakura · 06/07/2011 14:50

"So it does seem that for each problem the answer is to leave men alone and do stuff to women, which is a response deeply ingrained in the conscience of a patriarchal society IYSWIM"

SardineQueen, this is one of the points Greer was making.
And she made a lot of points!

[And I understood them all perfectly]

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ShirleyKnot · 06/07/2011 14:50

Well I get a letter every 3 years, so I don't find it particularly draining.

Thinking about it, I can theoretically see that by keeping our reproductive organs spick and span the men get to fuck us into submission for longer..or something. Maybe.

sakura · 06/07/2011 14:49

Essential I'd say you're pretty subjugated and controlled when there is a man inserting an implement (invented by another man) into your vagina

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CoteDAzur · 06/07/2011 14:48

"I think the controlling part of it is how women are constantly on a kind of calendar, always having to remember to do things, the whole time"

Most people have a smear test once every couple of years. That is hardly "constantly, the whole time".

Mine are once a year because of past scare, and even that is not something I have to remember "constantly, the whole time". It is just something I do around my birthday.

So what, really? My hair appointments are far more frequent, and it has never occurred to me that I'm somehow controlled by my hairdresser Hmm

SardineQueen · 06/07/2011 14:48

I do think there is a conversation to be had that the proliferation of things that women are supposed to do compared to men, is a result of a certain attitude.

Problem = unwanted pregnancy
Answer = plethora of things that prevent women conceiving, nothing really for men
Problem = cervical cancer (usually caused by HPV ie sex)
Answer = women get smears

Look at the HPV jab - it's just being given to girls although if you gave it to boys as well this would make it even more efficacious. Why? From threads on here it seems that people don't want their sons tampered with "unnecessarily" as cervical cancer isn't their problem, was the gist from a lot of posters.

So it does seem that for each problem the answer is to leave men alone and do stuff to women, which is a response deeply ingrained in the conscience of a patriarchal society IYSWIM.

Not really thought about this before but I'm sure there is a point in there somewhere that is worthy of debate.

sakura · 06/07/2011 14:48

Thank you SardineQueen [hi, BTW Smile ] and Mouseface,
I think you both get where I'm coming from

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ItsNotUnusual · 06/07/2011 14:47

It goes without saying we all make decisions about our own bodies but why make a decision that could prove fatal?

Does it? Does it go without saying? It appears to not be the case in Poland. And possibly in other parts of the world, so I read on this board (and I cannot back up with research, evidence and links so don't aske me to!!)

'Could' prove fatal - some woman have assessed the risks and made decisions based on that. Y'know, the way it goes without saying.

EssentialFattyAcid · 06/07/2011 14:47

Aside from the issue of compulsory smears, Surely the patriarchy doesn't want to eliminate women, merely to subjugate and control them so that they know their place, preferably of course without the women even being aware they are being subjugated?

sakura · 06/07/2011 14:46

SaF, I'M not misrepresenting what Greer has said at all. I know exactly what she said.

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Mouseface · 06/07/2011 14:46

"Have you ever noticed how it is womens reproductive health that is focused on from cancer to contraception? listening to the media you would think we died of nothing else. But we do.

Have you noticed how many routine check up appoontments we go to compared to put mal relatives despite being fit and well.

Have you noticed how when a screening programme is scaled back because it does not need to be so intense ( i think pap smear but could be wrong) there was media concern."

My thoughts exactly. I too went WTF? at the opening post from Sakura.

However, after reading this thread, I now know where she's coming from.

My smears are done by the sister who is always on hand at my GP. None of the male GPs are allowed to perform vaginal or breast exams without a female nurse in the room.

The same goes for Consultants in the UK. They have to have a nurse present.

Is it the same for a male exam? Does anyone know? If a male is having a testicular exam, is there a FEMALE nurse present with the doc? Or can a male doc perform exams alone?

My old GP, we've relocated but NOT because of him, was accused of indecently touching a teenage girl. He was arrested, investigated and proven NOT GUILTY.

The girl later said that she wanted him to fancy her so had made the claims against him. Thing is, she was a friend of his DD. He very nearly lost his license to practice medicine and be a GP.

In that one moment.

Sorry, rambling now.

Blush
Butlinsbabe · 06/07/2011 14:46

That's hardly the fault of men though is it?

Wasn't so long ago that the biggest killer of women was childbirth. That's no longer the case thanks to those pesky patriarchs and as if that wasn't enough, the bastards have come up with effective contraception controlled by women, breast and cervical screening, free and safe abortion and the MAP.

Bastards, we were so much better off barefoot and pregnant.

sakura · 06/07/2011 14:45

EldrichCleavage,

Thank you for your post.
That is the happy medium in this argument. Yes, there is a debate to be had about this.
But it's important to remember that "research into gynecology" has often consisted of men inflicting tortuous suffering onto women. Please read Mary Daly's Gyn/Ecology for detailed information of the "research into gynecology"
And yes, the amount of "research" into gynecology has been phenomenol over the past 200 years or so. It makes for sickening reading.

Butlins, do you know for certain that Jade Goody didn'T go for her smear tests?

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CoteDAzur · 06/07/2011 14:44

That could be because putting a coil in or taking it out is preferably done in the first two days of your period (when cervix is slightly open, apparently) to minimize pain, and a smear test can't be done when you have your period.

swallowedAfly · 06/07/2011 14:43

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SardineQueen · 06/07/2011 14:43

I think the controlling part of it is how women are constantly on a kind of calendar, always having to remember to do things, the whole time, and getting told off if they forget or don't want to.

Many women in the UK are in and out of doctors surgerys with extreme regularity for things related to their reproductive system. From puberty to past menopause. Each stage of life has "risks" and the things that we (have) to do have risks and the whole thing is a bit mind-bending when you stop to think og it.

From puberty or teens many/most girls are introduced to their first synthetic hormones and for many they are taken for a decade or more. Then babies and all of the rigmarole that entails. Then more hormones, until menopause, when it's yet more hormones. All the while there's letters for smears dropping through the letterbox every 5 mins and exortions to check breasts etc. The whole life is mapped out and marked out in medications.

I can't think of anything my DH is supposed to attend the docs for (that isn't something he actually has wrong IYSWIM).

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