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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My 9y old DD is visiting a mosque with the school & has been told to cover her head.

167 replies

Bohica · 30/06/2011 21:09

I don't want my daughter having to wear something different than the boys have to wear & for the girls to be told to cover up whilst the boys walk freely in their own clothes.

It's going to raise questions from my DD that I am not prepared/willing to talk to her about as I strongly believe that men & women are equal.

I'm not sure how to say no without raising questions either!

OP posts:
MillyR · 30/06/2011 22:54

There is a difference between respecting someone's right to hold a belief without interference in a democratic society and respecting the actual belief.

I respect the right of Muslim women to wear a headscarf for whatever their individual reason is. It doesn't make a difference to me if an individual woman is wearing a headscarf because of a deeply held religious belief or because of culture or because of fashion.

But I don't respect the actual belief if it is religious in nature; I simply respect the right to hold it. So I would not agree to my DD going to a place that was going to make such a distinction about women. I agree that children should learn about religion, but they could politely and sensibly go to another mosque where the girls didn't have to wear a headscarf, without the children being led to believe that the beliefs themselves are inherently worthy of respect. They are merely worthy of polite behaviour in a space that the children are visitors to.

PenguinArmy · 30/06/2011 22:31

It was in Egypt, but when we visited a mosque we were asked to dress modestly meaning to cover shoulders and knees.

coccyx · 30/06/2011 22:24

I believe girls are required to 'cover up' from 12 years

coccyx · 30/06/2011 22:23

I live in a muslim country and am not required to cover my head as I not a Muslim.
I have a 9 year old and she would love to know why she may have to cover her hair.
Think its more to do with respect rather than a womans place in society. She will learn such a lot from the trip

BarryShitpeas · 30/06/2011 22:22

To clarify, I am a feminist but not muslim. I am happy for my dds to visit mosque and pray with mil, and for her to ask them to cover their heads. I see no tension here, when they are with mil I expect them to follow her instructions from everything from eating of greens to covering heads.

BarryShitpeas · 30/06/2011 22:19

Then I would challenge the school as to why they have requested this.

It is usual to cover your head in a mosque, but I would have thought that mosques that are willing to have school trips to visit would not expect the girls to cover their heads.

It is a sad fact of British muslim life that it's actually fashionable to cover your little girl's head, sometimes in a scarf co-ordinated with her outfit.

I guess muslims are not immune from the image obsessed, shallow, consumerist slant that non-muslims are also guilty of.

I have muslim inlaws and have visited their mosque many times, for parties, events and evening classes.

I am not muslim and I don't join them for prayer (it is a large mosque with function rooms etc). I have not once been asked to cover my head.

However I have 3 daughters who do go to prayers with mil, and she likes their heads to be covered. I have learned to go along with it.

My husband is secular, and at home we are not religious. I actually like them going to mosque as it strengthens their relationship with mil, sharpens their Arabic, gives them another community, and teaches them some decent values.

Then when they come home I pick apart things they've been taught as doctrine, and we all argue discuss.

I don't know why I'm posting about our family situation, except that having contact with Islam as a non-muslim has been rewarding and enriching, as well as frustrating.

Good luck with her trip, I'm sure they won't eat her Smile

PacificDogwood · 30/06/2011 22:17

I have already regretted bringing Riven's name up, don't worry.
However, I do still think that a woman who identifies herself as a feminist and happens to be a muslim could have something of value to add to the OP's question.

I have no problem with challenging religions or belief systems that denigrate women or any other group of people, but I still think during a one off visit to a place of worship of whatever religion, that religion's customs ought to be respected.

I suppose I would not feel that strongly about covering my own head for a visit to a mosque .
And I would imagine (but admittedly, don't know) that what is to be gained from such a visit outweighs whatever compromise I might make on the day.

As to the 'rules' for prepubescent girls, I have no idea. But I am sure a muslim will know.

celadon · 30/06/2011 22:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JoleneJoleneJoleneJoleeene · 30/06/2011 22:09

The only way your daughter will grow up without prejudice is to experience different cultures and to understand why things are done a certain way. Show a bit of respect and send her with a head scarf. You don't have to be treated exactly the same to be equal.

Greythorne · 30/06/2011 22:09

Unfit
Presumably exactly the same!

unfitmother · 30/06/2011 22:04

And if it's a synagogue next week how will you feel?

Bohica · 30/06/2011 21:57

The letter that came home from school has a paragraph that reads:

Children will need to wear school uniform and girls need to bring a scarf to cover their heads during the visit.

OP posts:
Indigojohn · 30/06/2011 21:55

Greythorne - spot on!

Bohica · 30/06/2011 21:54

From a lot of posts here tonight I am feeling the request has come from the school & not the mosque.

OP posts:
Greythorne · 30/06/2011 21:54

OP
you need more info
I would not have thought a pre-pubescent child would need to cover her head
It might be hearsay

But if it transpires she is being asked to cover her head, clearly she should not. Jack shit to do with "respect for religious beliefs".

What about "respect" for those who believe circumcision is essential?
What about "respect" for those who believe humans are thetans and arrived from a faraway planet?

Dittany, as usual, is right.

And as for "Riven will have an interesting and informed opinion on this". I find that patronising; identification politics par excellence. Can't we all have an interesting and informed opinion on this without being muslim?

Bohica · 30/06/2011 21:52

It may be sad that you feel I have a narrow view of muslim women but surely by posting what I feel here & asking for advice is not passing any prejudice on to my DD?

And, I know very little about Islam but that doesn't mean I want to stand in the way for my daughter to be educated. That's why I am posting here.

I have said it's not the religious beliefs I have any issue with it's the whole girls need to be different to be able to go on the trip but boys can stay the same as normal.

If DD had asked me why she has to wear it but the boys don't then I would explain why but she hasn't, she is happy to go along with it all & that is why I haven't spoken to her.

I didn't post here about religion, I posted because I'm not happy that DD is being told she has to change her normal clothing but the boys don't need to.

OP posts:
BarryShitpeas · 30/06/2011 21:47

Agree with Kittens.

BarryShitpeas · 30/06/2011 21:46

I bet none of the visiting children will have to cover their heads.

You should tell her that she can still cover her head if she is asked to as she is a guest and it is polite to follow the customs of the place you are visiting. She can do this and not feel disloyal to your household values, it is just politeness.

Men cover their heads too, btw.

Sidge · 30/06/2011 21:46

I thought females only had to cover their hair if they had reached puberty?

Is it the school or the mosque that has asked them to cover their hair?

kittens · 30/06/2011 21:42

if you contact you local mosque I'm sure they'll be happy to show you around and not try to convert you!!

Our local mosque is pretty well known and does lots of outreach work with the local community to show that muslims are normal people and do care about their community. It is sad when people think all muslim women do is follow the orders of the men - it really isn't like that. The women at my mosque are strong, independant women who want to make a difference in the world - there are loads of bankers, lawyers, doctors, teachers, dentists, IT specialist, ladies who run their own businesses as well as stay at home mums.

I think its sad the OP has such a narrow view of muslim women and is passing her prejudice onto her daughter.

unfitmother · 30/06/2011 21:42

If the class went to synagogue next week and the boys had to wear skullcaps would you feel the same?
Can't imagine why you can't discuss such issues with a 9 year old BTW, my DD loves such debates.

dittany · 30/06/2011 21:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RafaNadalIsMyLoveSlave · 30/06/2011 21:40

I still don't understand what you think she is too young to deal with. My DS (8) dealt with a conversation about vasectomies and contraception admirably before moving on to talk about the best way to play marbles. They seem to me to be very matter-of-fact about a lot of things. He would certainly grasp the concepts you are dealing with here: inequality; religious beliefs; respect for the beliefs of others whilst not necessarily subscribing to them oneself.

I would think your DD would be more than old enough for you to explain your reservations and allow her to make a decision for herself - but obviously, you know her best and if you think she's not ready, fair enough.

Indigojohn · 30/06/2011 21:40

So, if men and women are equal why are the boys not asked to bring a cap?

harecare · 30/06/2011 21:35

I'm guessing it may be the teachers who have made the assumption about head covering for girls and not boys.
You don't have to talk about sex or subservience, just compare it to Christian Nuns who cover their heads for modesty.