Help me explain to my friend why this is really wrong

enjoyed age thing too. Beach, I am coming to suspect that you are a bitter woman. Bitter and twisted. My favourite kind. On a totally separate subject, the sky just exploded. Twice. South East thunderstorm. Neville (cat) not pleased.

Was going to make the black and white minstrel show analogy too earlier.

No harm in blacking one's face and acting like the white supremacist imposed idea of a stereotypical black person surely? I mean if one chooses to do it and it is for charidee and just good fun. Even better if one's black friends join in - then it can be ironic and empowerfulizing and post, um, postantiracism postabolutionist postcivilrights post something that sounds clever but doesn't really mean anything other than wake up and smell the backlash.

There would be street marches against that sort of thing.

Doing the same to women, indeed getting them to do it for themselves - family fun and just a joke and no harm done. I despair.

Springchicken - interesting point about the BNP. The fash might go in for having Black men dressed as B&W minstrels doing a bit of cotton picking or something that some killjoys might saywas racist. But in the grand scheme of things, low pay, racist attacks, etc, it's just a bit of fun. Nadine Dorries might be tricky, not for her internalised sexism but for her support for attacks on public sector workers. And so on. Obviously, if it's just a little bit sexist, it's only women, eh? Back of the queue. Next!

To some extent it depends how the event is being staged.

If it is basically a group of women getting into their bikinis and cajoling their male friends and relatives to bring their car to get it washed in a private setting then its all bit of 'seaside postcard' fun and actually probably just a bit embarrasing for the blokes being dragged into taking part.

On the other hand, if it's basically women stood at the side of a busy main road in their bikinis holding up a big sign inviting all and sundry to stop for a car wash then perhaps its a bit different.

i think sgb is right that you have to let her be to do what she wants. but i also agree with OP that it's a fairly weird thing for a bunch of women to want to do...

it wouldn't be to do with body insecurities for me, but that i really wouldn't want some of the neighbourhood weirdos (i'm shuddering just thinking of our very creepy norman bates-esque neighbourhood watch coordinator) coming for a perv, nor for that matter one or two of the local lecherous playground dads...

The bikini thing is just tacky apart from anything else.

Forgotten how good Cool Hand was. The eggs, I remember the eggs.

I don't disagree, Springchicken, but I also think that these 'small' things all add up, have a drip-drip effect, and other cliches, and ensure that women are still perceived as second-class citizens. I also don't think people need much encouragement to call feminists joyless, humourless, etc etc, and will level that accusation at feminists whatever they say or do.

So I don't know what the answer is, really. Perhaps to support the bigger issues while also making your opinions heard about the smaller ones. But I agree that being heavy-handed about it, especially to friends, doesn't do anyone any favours.

Actually, in terms of thinking about the social effect, I sincerely hope the OP devotes enough of her spare time to encouraging her friends to consider the most urgent and important feminist issues, such as campaigning for reproductive rights/better maternity care/equal pay/better protection for victims of DV etc.
Because something that struck me is that when a feminist goes on the heavy attack against a woman or group of women doing something they percieve as 'harmless fun' - the OP has called this charity stunt 'horribly wrong' which made me think, when I first clicked the thread, that her friend had voted for Nadine Dorries, joined the BNP or written a book telling women how to be a successful OW. or something like that - and doesn't listen to the women's point of view, she's pretty much ensuring that any time she wants to enlist their support for a more serious feminist cause they will be much less inclined to listen. Going on and on about a small scale charity stunt like this which really isn't a big deal to quite a lot of feminists let alone the rest of the world, just encourages people to think of feminism as about being pissy, joyless and self-righteous.

I am filing that young woman/old woman/pg woman/man scenario away for future use

I like your tuppence, BC < ahem >

I doubt what I am going to post will answer the OP's question but here is my tuppence worth.

When thinking about whether an activity/action is consistent with my feminist politics, I use the young woman/older woman/pregnant woman/man analogy.

In other words - do men do it/are men expected to do it/are men judged for doing or not doing it.

And, imagine the scene with very young women, older women or pregnant women.

Helps to take off the patriarchy blinkers and get some perspective.

And then think about it from a patriarchal perspective anew;

Would men pay to watch their elderly mother in laws wash their cars whilst scantily dressed? Would men pay to watch a group of pregnant women do the same (actually there are probably some sick fucks who would but I'm talking about normal men here)?

Or would the above be ridiculous, weird, demeaning?

So this activity is yuck because of its 'women get paid to be leered at' aspect, but it is also gross because it is an activity where only the body confident and 'attractive as dictated by patriarchy' are welcome to join in. Any other older fatter wrinklier less brainwashed jealous women can just fuck off and make the sandwiches or something whilst the deluded pretty ones are ogled admired and empowerfulized have fun.

Nice.

I am new tothe feminist board too. I had no idea it was so rigid and once a friend has disapproved the person is supposed to say 'yes mam-will do'!

There is only one point here. OP expressed disapproval and friend has ignored-end of.

(other than kidnap and hold hostage on the day!)

You win some, you lose some. Free choice is important.

Whichever way you slice it they can have free choice. I wouldn't do it but having voiced disapproval there is nothing else to do. I think that freedom of choice is far more important.

Whichever way you slice it it's degrading, inappropriate and sets us back.
I wouldn't want my children OR husband seeing women doing that.

No I don't think so HRH. Mr Pervy is obviously a creep, but it's still bloody uncomfortable to be on the end of creepy behaviour. It is horrible feeling exposed and vulnerable, even when rationally you know that the other person is a fuckwit and he has no right to make you feel so vulnerable and intimidated. But being rational about it and knowing how wrong this bastard is, doesn't stop you feeling very exposed when it happens to you. You can be surprised by quite how vulnerable you feel, even as you tell yourself that you have every right to wear what you like when you like, without being perved at by shits like this. And of course, that's the point of it - it's sexual bullying and even when you are really extremely well armed against it psychologically, it can be really very unpleasant and actually quite frightening. Of course it's wrong that men can do this to women. But they do. And I wonder if the OP's friend is fully aware of that and armed against it.

I agree that wearing bikinis in the street isn't, or shouldn't be, any different from wearing them at a beach or pool. But I'm troubled by the fact that women wearing bikinis is, in this instance, linked to making money. Do we really need yet more links between women revealing their bodies and commerce?

Having said that, I think you have to back off from your friend. She knows your opinion and your reasons but she doesn't agree. Surely you'll only piss her off if you carry on? If I were you I'd show my uneasiness about the event by not attending. If anyone asks if you're going or why you weren't there, explain. They also may not agree with you, but I think that's all you can do really.

I agree with SCGB. You have said your bit-anything more will make her more anti. I never see any point in banging your head against a brick wall!

Maybe the OP could try playing the Benny Hill theme tune to her friend. But I doubt that would have any effect either. I think she wants to do it, thinks it is fun, and likes the attention. That's why she called the OP "jealous". I agree with SCB, you can't change everyone's opinion, people will always disagree.

agreed.

Pan: Fine. It's fine to disagree. It's not fine to keep on and on banging away at a friend who doesn't agree with you. The OP can't 'get through' to her friend because her friend disagrees with her so the OP should leave it at that.