Help me explain to my friend why this is really wrong

Beachcomber: Well I have been a feminist for over 20 years as well and I have encountered it, lots and lots of time.
Still, anecdote is not data and all that.

SDTG - I am hoping that the report will explain my views on this thread. It's all about looking at violence against women as a pattern rather than isolated incidents. What factors are there which create our current culture where this violence us so common and sadly in some sectors of society and in an alarming number of teenage relationships normalised. I firmly believe that amongst the factors are the general inequalities we see in everyday life and the objectification of women's bodies.

A society which sees nothing wrong in a family fun day where one gender uses their bodies to generate £ for charity is not one which is taking women seriously.

Genuinely interested in what you think of the report. If you look in MN Campaigns the group who wrote this report have linked with MN to campaign against sexual bullying in schools. Unfortunately the important info in the report I linked to is kept out of the mainstream media.

I didn't mean that comment for you personally StayingDavidTennantsGirl - so sorry if it came across that way.

I guess I just get a bit frustrated sometimes by the comments made about this section and feminists in general.

I do think that sometimes feminists can be brusque with people because we hear the same ideas time and time again and it gets very frustrating to address those ideas over and over again. Of course we hear those ideas because they are mainstream notions and paradigms of male dominated society - they are ideas that we all grow up with and are taught to believe without really questioning them. This is how the status quo works.

If we take the example of what you posted on this thread about women exploiting men - this is a very common mainstream patriarchal idea that is often used about all manner of institutionalised sexual exploitation of women by male dominated society. I'm sorry if the reaction you got on this thread about that idea was dismissive or rude or unhelpful, but it is an idea that feminists encounter with disheartening frequency and we aren't always patient and wanting to teach other people about things that it is easy enough for a person to educate themselves about with a little reading. I'm often amazed by the exacting standards that feminists are held to about explaining feminist concepts to other people all the time - and we are hostile meanies if we don't stop our discussion immediately and explain X concept again. (I am not saying that this is what you are doing SDTG - I'm trying to explain in general why these clashes happen.)

It is nobody's fault if they haven't come across the ins and outs of some of the less mainstream concepts of feminism before, or had reason to read about them and explore them. We all have to start our feminist journey somewhere and take and leave the politics of feminism as they fit in with our selves and our lives.

It's just sometimes is frustrating to encounter notions that go against feminist analysis in a feminist space. Of course that frustration can make people who are new to feminist discussions feel unwelcome.

Perhaps we should all be really careful all the time how we address each other and take the time to explain the tenets of feminism over and over again. Perhaps not though. Perhaps people need to take a bit more responsibility for teaching themselves. (Again this is not directed at you personally it is general out loud musing.)

I can't speak for others who visit the Feminism section, but I am not affronted by coming across some feminist analysis. What affronts me is being treated as if I am stupid/a dupe of the patriarchy/unable to understand the issues and make a decision of my own, simply for expressing an opinion.

Forkful - I have saved the report to read at a later point, but I'm not arguing in favour of violence against women, or saying that it shouldn't be fought at every turn, so I'm not sure why you think I need to read it.

"I have a big problem with the strand of feminist thought that always seems to go right round the circle to hold hands with the rightwing religious patriarchal types - the 'Cover yourself up! Real feminists/Nice Girls don't do that sort of thing'' school of feminism."

SGB, in over twenty years of being a feminist I have never encountered what you describe here.

This is what I mean by feminism being misrepresented. What you suggest above is confusing the moral (as dictated by patriarchy) with the political (as defined by feminist analysis of patriarchy) I think.

You might as well just use the 'feminists are prudes' strawman - in fact, I think you just did. Just like you did to me earlier when you asked me if I thought women should wear burquas because I think bikini charity car washes are a pretty damn patriarchal concept.

I come on the feminist section to engage in feminist analysis and discussion and generally chew the feminist fat. I come to read other people's views and learn from them. I come to help me understand my own views and express them. I come because it can be lonely being a feminist and it is nice to share the experience with others.

I don't come because I think it is for me to convert others, teach them about feminism, make feminism fun and appealing, or for any other agenda. I also tend not to go on threads in MN out with the feminist section in order to harangue people about feminism. I will answer direct questions about feminism if the question is about something I have experience of or have knowledge of or have interest in.

I know we can be a bit bristly and robust here - I think that is because we sometimes get frustrated and because we really care about female oppression. I think it is also because we also take quite a lot of flak (humourless, lecturing, etc) and are expected to always take it with good grace or we will be accused of putting people off feminism. We do also, very often, have our words misunderstood or even twisted and misrepresented.

I think it is also a bit odd if posters come to the feminist section and are then affronted by coming across some feminist analysis.

Of course not all feminists feel the same about all women's issues. There are however some basic tenets of feminism that form the foundation of feminist analysis, and of feminism as a political movement - without those basic tenets feminism would be watered down to; 'if a choice is made by a woman it is a feminist choice' nothingness. (Game over - much rejoicing in patriarchy.)

It does often feel to me that feminists can never get it right - if we call out women or men on patriarchal views and/or behaviour and suggest that people are choosing that behaviour and are responsible for it, we are being dictatorial and oppressive (despite having no actual power, institutionalized or otherwise!).

If we call out the above behaviour but suggest that the behaviour is influenced by society, we are accused of patronising people and thinking they are stupid and inferior.

Kinda makes one wonder why one bothers really. Patriarchy really sucks sometimes.

"Of course, the difference between the chicken keepers and the feminist sections is that the chicken keepers do not believe that everyone should keep chickens, and that those who don't want to keep chickens are wrong/ill-educated/under the thumb of the dog-riarchy, whereas I believe that the feminists wish to change the thinking/beliefs of others."

Just wanted to respond to this bit SDTG. I don't that women who do things like this bikini wash are wrong/ill-eduated/under then thumb of patriarchy. I think they are acting in a pretty rational way in a world where doing stuff like that is normalised and rewarded. But I think that the society is wrong that says those are the things to be normalised and valued. We all live in a society that we didn't get to decide, and I want to change that society.

And that's what I see when I see people criticising this type of thing.

That's why I put my energies into protesting, for example, the existence of lap dancing clubs, but I would never, ever go and hassle a dancer. She's doing what makes sense in a world not of her making. And that goes for every feminist I've ever met I think.

What do you think about the report, SDTG?

Equally, perhaps others here shouldn't get upset when their feminist views are challenged - because it certainly feels as if people are only welcome here if they agree with you. And this section may not be here to convert people one by one, but is it a good thing if it actively puts people off discussing/looking at feminist issues, for fear that they'll get jumped on if they don't say the right things?

I am not saying don't come here! Far from it. But don't get upset when people people challenge your view of this event as "exploiting men". To me the use of the word "exploit" is insulting to the huge numbers if women who are exploited by the sex industry and the women who suffer violence. This section is not here to "convert" people one by one. Many lurkers have changed their views through what they've read here.

Other feminists tend to state their point more strongly than me I am actually one if the "teacher-y" ones.

Let me know if that report makes my position on this event more understandable.

Of course, the difference between the chicken keepers and the feminist sections is that the chicken keepers do not believe that everyone should keep chickens, and that those who don't want to keep chickens are wrong/ill-educated/under the thumb of the dog-riarchy, whereas I believe that the feminists wish to change the thinking/beliefs of others.

Hence it is logical to suggest that only those interested in chicken keeping should visit the chicken keepers section, whilst suggesting this about the feminism section results in you preaching to the choir, rather than making sure your views and arguments are viewed by as many people as possible.

link to report

Chicken keepers section analogy

SGB - I have far less problem with Slutwalk than this bikini car wash. For me it is not what is being worn but in what context.

I thought the Slutwalk movement was an amazing thing to have sprung out of that twat police officer in Canada's victim blaming words. It pissed me off that it got more coverage than Reclaim the Night etc.

The women chose what to wear on Slut Walk. Some did not wear revealing clothes. No £ changed hands.

In this event if you want to raise £ for charity you need to wear a bikini. People are being invited to WATCH. It is not about clean cars! It normalises men ogling at women in a "fun family" setting.

I am not advocating banning the event/preventing women from taking part. I would certainly discourage a woman I knew from taking part and would not attend myself.

StayingDavidTennantsGirl - wrt to this section of MN it is often the only place I see an alternative view to mainstream thinking.

The oft used Chicken Keepers section is trite but apt. Anyone going there saying that pursuit is wrong/crap/dogs are better would seem a bit strange.

I know people find it annoying when they get told to go and read some books but honestly many feminists find it upsetting when someone says that an event like this exploits men!

I link it into the wider context of Violence Against Women. Please look at [http://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/data/files/a_different_world_is_possible_report_email_version.pdf this report]]. Page 20 of the PDF shows factors contributing to VAW. A lot of it is to do with attitudes towards women. This event normalises objectification against women then you get street harassment and men controlling and abusing their girlfriends etc.

This stuff is just not being discussed properly in the mainstream press. Please please read the report and start to join up the dots on these issues.

We need to end violence against women.

"There have been posts on this thread suggesting that if men make derogatory comments to these bikini-clad women it's all their own fault and serves them right. That's not my idea of feminism."

Not mine either.

But the problem isn't with them choosing to be semi-naked in public - the issue is that they are doing this because they know it will get them more money from men because men like looking at tits and arse. Nudity simply wouldn't be an issue if everyone was naked all the time but that isn't the case so it becomes sexualised.

Well one part of being a feminist (for me anyway) has always been about understanding that not all feminists are a homogenous mass who agree on everything, any mroe than all women are exactly the same and agree on everything. I have a big problem with the strand of feminist thought that always seems to go right round the circle to hold hands with the rightwing religious patriarchal types - the 'Cover yourself up! Real feminists/Nice Girls don't do that sort of thing'' school of feminism. This mindset was around when the Slutwalk was in the news, and I thought it strange that so few people got what it was about - the message I wanted to convey (couldn't go, in the end, no childcare' was Actually I am a slut, I wear revealing clothes and like group sex but it's still up to me who I have sex with and no one is entitled to attack me. There have been posts on this thread suggesting that if men make derogatory comments to these bikini-clad women it's all their own fault and serves them right. That's not my idea of feminism.

I have posted on a couple of feminist threads, and have been hit with rather aggressively patronising responses that suggested I was unintelligent for not agreeing with what was being said, that felt to me like attempts to silence me. I feel that way about HerBeX's response to me earlier on this thread.

We are not supposed to live by the rules of the patriarchy - but instead we are supposed to live by the feminists' rules, and anyone who dares to disagree will be ridiculed, patronised or shouted down.

I now fully expect to be told that I don't understand the issues properly, with the implication that I am some fluff-brained moron incapable of intelligent thought. Heaven forfend that I might consider the issues and come to a different conclusion.

If you patronise and shout down all differing opinions, you will drive all but the true believers off the Feminism topic - and how much good will you do if you are just preaching to the choir?

I just noticed you said this exoticfruits;

"Lead by quiet example".

What do you mean in a ladylike manner? Like patriarchy tells us to? Like good girls who don't shout and make a fuss and get angry and assertive?

That won't get us anywhere.

I do think it is a shame that lots of women turn away from feminism because it isn't feminine and ladylike as dictated by patriarchy. Hugely ironic, but a crying shame.

See I think the posters on the feminist section are blimmin' hilarious.

There is a lot of humour and wit in this section. The feminists blogs I read are very funny too. Sometimes it is fairly dark humour and sometimes it is poking fun at patriarchy in a satirical way. Humour has always been a very communicative political tool and it helps to keep morale up. It also helps to share 'in-jokes' and plays on words, etc with like minded people because it helps us to feel part of a movement and not alone.

Having said that, there is so much about feminism that just isn't funny - oppression isn't funny, male violence isn't funny. There are many aspects of feminism that I am humourless about because humour has no place in these areas, there is just no joke to be made. I'm thinking of rape, DV, the commodification of female sexuality, trafficking etc.

I think people who are 'put off' feminism because it ain't a laugh a minute are very odd though. Especially considering that women are constantly being told to 'lighten up' and 'it's just a joke' - generally when someone is sexually harassing or assaulting them.

I don't think this bikini charity crap is funny because it falls right into the normalization of the commodifcation of female bodies and sexuality - one of the biggest issues faced by women in male dominated society. I'm not surprised that lots of people don't see how crass and offensive that is. Just don't ask me to laugh about it - you might as well ask me to laugh at lap dancing.

But hey lets not let the humourless militant no fun feminists spoil things with their annoying habit of detecting patriarchal bullshit when it is right under everyone's noses.

Just have a heart and think about the fact that the women who are taking part in this event are commodifying their bodies for charity and a laugh and because they fancy feeling sexy and being admired. I happen to think this is a stupid thing to do in the middle of a blimmin patriarchy - I also think it is a slap in the face to solidarity with women whose bodies are commodified for much more sinister reasons and in much more violent and coercive ways.

And that is not funny.

Oh that's OK I don't care about winning friends anymore. I've got enough.

As for influencing people, I think if people they are open to the arguments, they will think about them however they are delivered. If people let their egos get in the way of the arguments (something we all do at times), that's up to them.

I think it's a fairly fundamentally feminist position - to discourage women from pandering to male obsession with female near-nakedness. It is minor compared with FGM and sex-trafficking of course. Just as poverty in the UK is fairly minor compared with a serious famine in other parts of the world - but concern for one is part or and does not negate concern for the other.

And if I type this whils laughing lightheartedly will that save me from accusations of humourlessness?

sorry -definitely

Sorry, I expect the humourless was out of context. I just think that a sense of humour, not lecturing and not taking yourself so seriously would do the cause far more good. Lead by quiet example, people do what you do-not many like to just do as they are told!
I was agreeing with SGB that there are far more things in the world-terrible things-too numerous to mention-to worry about than a charity car wash and what the people are wearing or not wearing. I don't like it, but there are things far more worthwhile of my energies.

Patronise away HerBex -I have got over the irritation- but it doesn't win friends and influence people. I love the quote from another thread from someone who thought she was a feminist until she found 'the self-appointed arbiters of MN feminism'. I am a feminist -but most definately not as defined on here.

Still a bit breathless at the tragic fact that we are having this discussion again. I cannot imagine the mental contortions required to believe that the bikini event described could possibly be construed as anything other than sexist, anti-woman objectification. I hold these truths to be self evident. And for very similar reasons to the original context of those words.

OK, fair enough exoticfruits, it would appear that you didn't understand that my question was referring to the combination effect of your and SGB's posts.

It sounded to me like the two of you were coming from the same standpoint and employing fairly standard 'silencing' tactics such as 'you'll put people off feminism by taking it seriously' and 'there are more important things you should be discussing'.

I guess I got that impression because you agreed with SGB, claimed my posts made you want to run out a wash cars in a bikini at the first available opportunity, and, quoted me out of context in your post of;

Thu 30-Jun-11 06:21:04
"Of course this is why feminists are so often painted as 'humourless'"

Too right! It doesn't help the cause.

What I really said was;

"Of course this is why feminists are so often painted as 'humourless' - because we don't find cultural references to our oppression, or examples of our oppression screamingly funny."

That's the trouble when you quote out of context (without addressing the poster in question), or address people in the third person - misunderstandings arise.