Question re making yourself look pretty....

I caught myself making superficial judgements on people's appearance several times today... it's so pointless and feeds our sense of 'measuring up'. not good.

When I was single I 'made myself pretty' at one level because it gave me a bigger choice of sexual partners. Though I wouldn't have admitted it to myself at the time...

Certainly sometimes I got it wrong and 'tried too hard', wore too much makeup, dyed my hair too blonde, went OTT about diet and exercise, no regrets whatsoever though, I see that as all part of the maturing process...I think it's a normal part of your teens and twenties, perhaps thirties too for some people. I wouldn't expect me at 17 to have known myself or been as comfortable with myself as well as I do now at 35.

Garlic... I agree with you about the judgementalism... we are so used to being judged and we judge others too, and it becomes normal to judge people on appearances. I might try to be a bit more mindful of the kinds of judgements I make of others too. perhaps changing my own judgements of others will free me from feeling judged myself.

I agree that for many of us it's about conforming - wanting not to attract attention - and, often, aiming to conform to other women's expectations. But those expectations do, imo, trace back to the damn patriarchy again. The ad campaigns that made us think we mustn't smell of ourselves, or have hairy legs, or untidy hair, etc,etc,etc, were created by men to make more money for corporations owned by men.

It pisses me off. But, the other day when it was sunny and I walked to the shops in shorts and fuzzy legs, I felt judgemental eyes burning into me. They probably weren't doing anything of the sort. But I waxed as soon as I got home! That's a form of self-censorship, innit? Tsk, Garlic

I've got to say, though, that now I'm middle-aged I very much enjoy being "invisible". It makes life easier. If I want to 'show off' (become hi-vis), I wear Very Bright Colours and Very Big Hair - that's definitely not about conforming.

In my sexier days, it was fun to use girly stuff to show off and look pretty :) I am unable to view that as a bad thing, especially when you can also use it as camouflage if you're insecure. It's a problem if you feel you "must" do all that work. Do women normally question this some time in their early twenties? Or are they all hopelessly brainwashed?

maybe, ormirian your DD will not be bothered about it all - perhaps she will not be terribly fussed - that would be nice

Ormirian yes, it bothers me that my sister worries so much about her appearance too. We were both raised exactly the same way, never under pressure to dress up but never denied make up, high heels and so on. She seems to have fallen prey to the beauty myth very heavily, and it is a shame because she is stunning as she is. It's hard to know what do to - I can't imagine what that must be like from a parent's perspective.

I don't like the feeling of foundation on my face, it feels too heavy. And I don't mind wearing skirts with unshaven legs, though I do like to shave my legs. It all just takes so much time, and I don't have much time free. I prefer to be reading or go out walking or something.

What bothers me is how I approach this with DD. She's 12 so it will become an issue for her quite soon. So far she isn't particularly interested. From being a total tomboy she has started to buy hair slides and choose more feminine clothes and I am taking my lead from her. I will find it hard when she starts wanting to take the prettification thing a lot further. So many girls in her school look little dolls - dyed, straightened hair, huge eyelashes, orange skin.

She is pretty already. I think she is beautiful. So why must she pluck, shave, paint and reduce herself in size to be acceptable?

I do pluck and wax, but I do it because I want to, it makes me happier. I have tried the 'not waxing my legs' thing and it kept playing on my mind, as I wasn't happy, so I waxed. I wasn't doing it for anyone else, as it was winter time, so my legs weren't on show. It didn't even bother DH. I just wasn't comfortable like it.

I rarely wear make-up though, I see it as a mask, especially too much of it.

I agree with Leningrad, plucking my eyebrows HURTS so I have stopped doing it. I don't really notice the furry bit in the middle and if I do I don't care enough to hurt myself getting rid of it. But my little sis would be very upset if her eyebrows looked like mine. She takes great care plucking. Each to their own, I say.

Men wear shorts and flip flops with nary a thought to their hairy legs and non-pedi'd tootsies...

I wear make-up, dye my hair, pluck, shave*, etc, etc. I do it because it makes me feel better about myself. I am long past the point of looking to attract or impress men, so it is definitely for myself, and not even for DH who wouldn't be bothered if I never wore make-up again. As I say though, I wear it because it makes me feel better about me.

But - I'm under no illusions that the only reason it makes me feel better about myself is because that's the expectation on women and that we've been conditioned into believing we need it, and that it will make us feel better about ourselves. I'm not closing my eyes to the bigger and the outside influences.

• I only shave my legs if they are going to be exposed and only because I know I will be sideways glanced at by people if I don't....

I'm just not sure how i will explain about my hair to a man. Or why i take the meds i do (in fact i won't wish to discuss that at all). Oh, crap...

(I mean 2nd thoughts.).

Due to (head) hair loss i decided to buy a wig last month. I tried on several, and ending up buying the one that made me smile - ie. a glam highlighted WAG style long layered creation.
When my sister saw it she said 'you do realise that you'll need to wear more make up to carry that off!?' Then i had 2nd - but it was too late to return it.
I ask myself why I chose that style of wig when i am more of a 'geeky bun and glasses' type.
Is it because i wanted male attention?
Er, yes.
I admit it.
I wanted to look beautiful to men. And yes, looking a certain way can be useful in this world.
But i am still a feminist without doubt.

wicket keeper, I think looking nice is important, I just think that it's a shame to allow insecurity to make us feel that we need to look a particular sort of nice, at personal cost in terms of time, pain, comfort, money etc. Lippy is not letting any side down at all! unless you keep missing the great conversation at the bar because you keep going to the toilet to reapply it!

Oh dear. Why shouldn't we all try to look as nice as possible? I like to look nice. Don't we as women shoulder enough guilt without being made to feel we're letting the side down if we wear a bit of lippy?

sinical sal... I have been giving these issues some thought, and am totally with you on the looking nice/ looking sexy idea. The distinction is really important, and conciousness of it will help me to dress more confidently.

"One of the things that annoys me about modern western bod mod is that we do all these things and try to look like it's 'natural'.
So that rather than 'decorating' ourselves with bright colours and beads we are saying that our actual natural selves are unnatural in some way."

I have an issue with that as well, I prefer to look deliberately made up. Rather than made up in a pretending not to be made up way.

The conforming to beauty standards thing is often about not wanting someone to look at you/judge you on your looks.
Personally, if i wore a sundress on a summers day, I'd definitely shave and apply a layer of tan. Not so everyone could admire my sexy legs, but so they'd skim over them and not notice. That probably applies more to fear of womens' judgement than male though.

There's also n element of being in control/being able to cope with life too. Superwoman can juggle the lot.

What's interesting to me is the blurring of looking nice and looking sexy. It's nice to look nice down in Tesco, but sexy? Unless you're actively on the pull it's logically a pointless notion to look sexy.

Of course, the fundamental problem is the importance looks have in a woman's life. Because our function is basically to be qualify as being good enough to have sex with.

ilovedora - my apols - when you said you did check-in for the falklands i assumed you meant on the desk. ergo mover. admin is slightly different as it's one of those things that girls are supposed to do (one of the few places in the military they are desirable). so you wouldn't have got as much sexist rubbish. female movers are subjected to a lot of criticism, and have been right from the start. the uproar when they let women into the trade (they are too weak/ can't lift the bags/ fork the freight), and then when the first one got promoted, dear dear. and the capability question is still raging, with each girl recruited being under immense pressure and scrutiny to prove herself.

did you ever read that lovely article by the female herc pilot on ops btw? 'a day in the life of' - lots of discussion over adminers in there... not just blokes who can be mysogynistic numpties.

Asking the question is the important thing I think.

I never questioned why I shaved my armpits, and remember being really at someone who hadn't shaved their legs.
Now I know that I don't have to if I don't want to.

I've always been interested in all the variety of body modification that does and has gone on, including make-up, hairstyles, shaving, tattoos etc. Some of it is quite horrifying from our cultural standpoint, the Padaung women's stretched necks for instance. Looking at what we do from an outside perspective can be quite enlightening.

One of the things that annoys me about modern western bod mod is that we do all these things and try to look like it's 'natural'.
So that rather than 'decorating' ourselves with bright colours and beads we are saying that our actual natural selves are unnatural in some way.

Wow! I liked that! Ty, Riven

YouTube - Katie Makkai - Pretty

3 min - 3 Nov 2007 - Uploaded by crzylbrlchick
Katie Makkai, a veteran poetry slammer - defining the word "pretty". Transcript can be found here: ...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6wJl37N9C0
More videos for pretty katie makkai »

That youtube link. What i cant do properly sorry

TW, I agree, but what if we don't have the answers?

I mean, the use of make up dates back to the Egyptian period, IIRC. It's just something that's become more global since. Some women will do such things for partners or to get male attention. Others may feel more powerful. I think there is an element of it being slightly different for everyone.

Must also add, what of the men who wear make up? What are their reasons?

Riven I've not read that poem. Will try and find it later.