Was Bristol Palin raped?

1. Bristol says she was drunk. Do you believe her?
2. Why does Levi's state of intoxication matter? Do you believe that being drunk absolves a man of criminal responsibility if he rapes?
3. Bristol says they had sex. Do you believe her?
4. Why does this matter?
5. Does it matter why they were drinking or why they had sex? Why? What else matters?

Do you remember the woman who was kidnapped and killed recently and the police arrested the landlord? Everyone said "Ooo, he looks funny/guilty etc" and guess what? It wasn't him. I don't want any human being of either gender given a bad name and hanged because it is evil.

I have no way of knowing, karma.

None of us know:

1. Whether Bristol was drunk
2. Whether Levi was drunk
3. Who did what to whom in the tent
4. Who said what to whom afterwards
5. Why they did or didn't do whatever they may or may not have done.

Why do people out a Z on men?

She has said that he had sex with her when she was too drunk to remember. Do you not believe her?

And she hasn't said she was raped. So she can't be accused of lying.

And it would also mean treating the accused as innocent until proven guilty.

What's yours then?

Equality would mean treating the victims of rape the same as the victims of every other crime and not assuming they are lying. Especially when the facts show that they rarely lie.

In which case you and I have a very different understanding of feminism.

Mrs r the law says that if a womans judgement is impaired by drugs or alcohol, they cannot consent to sex. That is current uk law. In the us it varies state by state.

On a feminist board.

My understanding of feminism is about equality.

Why would I believe him?

Or you?

Or anyone?

Special gender pleading just doesn't cut the mustard either way for me.

Why would I?

Clearly there's not enough eduction, given that we are having a debate on a feminist board of all places as to whether drunk women can consent and more than one poster has suggested that the man being drunk may be a mitigating circumstance.

Hully, sorry, bloody autocorrect

Hilly, she says she was drunk. Why would you not believe her?

TheBossofMe

You don't have to assume she is lying, but 'trust but verify'. Perhaps best not to assume anything at all and just keep it up in the air until there is proof.

The law doesn't say that, at least not that simplistically.

Correct, that is offensive, no-one is arguing otherwise.

That wasn't what I said. I said that we didn't know whether she had consented, and in my opinion assuming she is telling the truth is as offensive to him as it is to her by assuming she is lying.

Of course it should be taught to all genders. But since we are in the feminism section, you don't mind I'm sure if we focus on how women are negatively impacted by this and leave the what about the menz bit for a different section. Plus of course the fact that for many men, being drunk means no erection, so the likelihood of a woman forcing a drunk man to have penetrative sex is rather less than vice versa

We don't know if either/both were drunk

We don't know anything

Assumptions are terribly dangerous

I think that's a good idea karmakameleon, but shouldn't it be taught to all genders? If being drunk vitiates consent, then wouldn't sober women who sleep be drunk men also be rapists (not legally of course, due to the UK's penis requirement, but morally)?

Also, there is a lot of education already not to have sex with drunk girls for boys, and for drunk girls not to feel pressured into doing it.

No I find assuming the girl must be lying offensive

I find ignoring the law that states that drunk people can't consent to sex offensive

I find the behaviour of teenage boys who think it's ok to shag a drunk girl offensive.

I find the pov that if you can't remember, the default position is that consent must have been given at the time offensive.

Men and teenage boys should be taught that women and teenage girls who are drunk are not able to consent to sex. They should not have sex with drunk women unless they know damn well that the woman would have consented when sober.

If the man is drunk he should be aware that it does not absolve him of criminal responsibility. If he does not trust himself not to rape drunk girls when he's been drinking, he should avoid alcohol.

Men rape drunk women all the time. They shouldn't be able to write it off as "normal" drunk barely remembered sex.

TheBossofMe

You find innocent until proven guilty an offensive point of view?!