Was Bristol Palin raped?

I definitely agree that the victim doesn't have to call it rape for it to be rape.

But I think you are not doing Bristol any favours - you are making her an object, completely passive, with no will or motive of her own. In your story things are done to her, but she doesn't do anything herself.

Why give him all the autonomy and sexual desire/intent and paint her as a stupid gormless girl?

Why are you happy to assume that he planned it?

Good to be back, dittany - I've been lurking even though I haven't been posting, and this section has kept me sane - its been a collective voice of inspiration for me. One of my "vows" to myself has been to stop being so stupidly polite and accomodating in my life, and be much more outspoken about what I actually think, stand up more for what I believe in - I think I'm starting to learn from your example!

I don't know about you, but to me it feels like this section has found its stride and is starting to have a really really positive impact on the MN community - witness that fab "Silent Majority" thread.

I spotted a poster somewhere else on the site talking about genital mutilation - this has just reminded me to find her thread and point her in this direction.

I think it's very patronising to infer from Bristol's brief interview that she was raped.

Let her name and own her own experiences for her own reasons.

Is that a more polite way of saying that she's probably not telling the truth?

About this story? She may or may not be telling the truth. I don't really care TBH. Either way it sounds as if her first sexual experience was not terribly nice, both in itself and in how she felt about it (with extra points for an upbringing that would make it difficult for her to have a happy sexual experience).

But it would be naive to think that everyting in the book is going to be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Where did this "young girls lie" thing start? I mean, people talk about teen lads "exaggerating", which is IMO a bit of an indulgent, almost soft laughing word. Whereas when we talk about young girls, we talk about them "lying" and "making it up", harsh, judgemental, negative connotations.

Sakura - funny old thing has happened over the last few weeks, plenty of time to think seems to have lit a bit of a fuse under me, and I've become really angry about lots of things. Perhaps having my femininity so physically challenged has made me a more articulate feminist (although judging by my ramblings on some other threads, maybe not!). Its certainly made me a more outspoken one. I've also seen some really negative patriarchy-bound behaviour directed at my 3yo DD which has made me FURIOUS. She's 3, ffs, seriously, how can it all start so young?

karma - the "drunk women are easy prey" thing starts so early. The 13yo DD of a friend of mine came home in tears from a school prom because the boys brought booze in Daddy's hipflask to the dance, and were offering it to girls that they "liked". Girls they didn't fancy didn't get any (which actually is why she was crying!) Why would you do that if it wasn't to lower inhibitions and move in for the kill? Its starts early, carries on through fuck-a-fresher week at Uni, and on and on and on.

Looks like it.

Is that a more polite way of saying that she's probably not telling the truth?

I don't assume that women are lying any more than I assume men are lying,

I do assume that anyone who writes a memoir at the age of 21 has something to sell or an agenda to push, and that stories contained within that memoir will have been written with that agenda in mind.

sakura is right. People come at this with the assumption that women are lying. They get drunk, have consenual sex, regret it in the morning and throw around accusations of rape.

The reality is that alcohol is the number one date rape drug and there are men out there preying on vunerable drunk women and raping them.

Macaroona, I had a lot of drunken one night stands when I was younger, some of which I wouldn't have had if I was sober. I wouldn't accuse these men of rape because they made sure I was sober enough to consent (they asked how much I'd drunk, made sure I could have a coherent conversation), they made sure I was an fully active participant, they gave me plenty of opportunity to change my mind and did not pressure me to do anything I didn't want to do. A couple decided not to have sex with me because they thought I was too drunk and might regret in the morning. If all men acted like that, I doubt they'd be accused of rape.

Hi TheBossofMe, Muddling through here, you know. I'm loving your work on this thread.
You too dittany.
People have just been so brainwashed into thinking girls/women have a tendency to lie that they cannot see something that's glaring them in the face.
THe truth is: men have a real tendency to lie. They lie to their wives all the time about affairs, prostitution business trips to Hungary for prostitution orgies.. In particular, men lie about rape. To protect themselves. To prevent themselves from getting sent down.

Rivenside the Z.. dunno, I just find it funny. It's like a typo, as if a really angry man or male-identified woman is pissed off that feminists are defending women, so instead of typing What about the MEN!! it accidentally comes out as "menz" !!!! instead.

could be something else though

Bigfatcath - sorry, I shouldn't have used catholic as shorthand for Palin's moralistic posturing. Not good, sorry.

Ok, what if I was drunk, and ended up having consensual sex with a guy who I wouldn't touch with a bargepole if I was sober. I immediately regretted it the next morning, crying on my flatmate's shoulder about it while he showed off all over town.

That's not rape, that's bad judgement from me and crap behaviour from him if he knew I only wanted to have sex with him because I was drunk.

Horrible, but not rape.

MACAROONA Sarah Palin isn't Catholic!!! Catholics get the blame for enough on mumsnet!!!!

There is a weird misconception being repeated on here that drunk women cannot consent to sex. It simply isn't true in legal or practical terms.

It is possible to consent to sex and then forget about it. It's not rape.

Also, Bristol doesn't say that she regretted losing her virginity in this way! She might later call it rape, but she might equally say she is glad to have got it over with! We don't know.

Not all men who have sex with drunk women are rapists - that's just ridiculous and half of us probably wouldn't be here today if they were, or our fathers would be in prison

What? On MN? I doubt he knows it exists.

He has a book coming out later this year. He may well deny it then.

I dont think these are contridictory versions.

I believe what people say unless I have some reason not to. He isn't coming out denying this is he?

They could.

It doesn't change the fact we don't know.

I think I am going to agree to differ as we seem to be going round and round in circles.