Benevolent sexism - should men hold doors open?!

on the train - not any old seats willy nilly

many years ago when i first had to work in london, i was amazed that men didn't stand up and let women have the seats.

i decided to wear comfy shoes instead

I think that there is a fine line between being polite and courteous (which is nice) and being over the top (which can be very uncomfortable). I think that politeness should be a background thing, it's when it is ever so overt that it becomes a problem for me. I agree that reciprocity is a big part of it - someone opening the door for me, nice, someone who just can't cope with me opening the door for them, well arse really.

I had a very nice colleague once - with whom I worked on terms of total equality - who commented that he wasn't opening the door because I was a lady but because he was a gentleman.

That's all right in my book.

Alice/sunshine - both of your last posts are very interesting because it seems there is a very fine line here.

To some extent, it seems to partly depend on how you feel about the man, your previous experience of him, etc. Friendly, less well paid, well known male colleague opening door is just polite. Male boss, better paid, unknown to you opening a door may be being somewhat sexist.

Not knowing me, or how I behave towards men, you say you might well feel I was behaving in a sexist way. Really and truthfully, I genuinely do all those things when I go to a restaurant no matter what sex and I would feel happy if you reciprocated.

I am playing devils advocate here a bit because I do really know the sort of annoying things you are talking about. Its just a shame that genuine politeness between men and women might also be mistaken for sexism.

I've got to admit though that if you asked to take my coat for me I'd be a bit Everything else I could see as politeness as I have often done those things to people I've gone out to dinner with.

X posts there MoreBeta. I think that's a fair point you're making.

It's difficult to tell from this study because both the Telegraph and the DM have deliberately failed to give any details about it; they've just latched on to the sensational headline angle. However, from what I can interpet the volunteers were just recording interactions with people they would normally see on a daily basis. I think that's relevant. If you were take me out to a restaurant like you describe, I'd still be making up my mind about you and would need to see more of your behaviour to put it into context. If I knew you already though, I'd already have that context IYSWIM.

Yep, I'd think you were sexist. When you go out for a business lunch with a man, do you do all those things to him?

I have a male colleague I spend lots of time with. He sometimes opens the door for me, I sometimes open it for him. He'll pick up the trays at lunch, I'll get the cutlery. He'll buy me a cuppa, and I rarely reciprocate because we both know he has more money than me. We both do nice polite things for each other. If we went for lunch and he tried to do all that for me, without the opportunity to reciprocate I would feel undermined and belittled. You like to do polite things for others, great. So why do you think that women don't get to do polite things for you in return? Imagine for a moment if someone who was more powerful than you in your workplace took you out and did all those things to you. How would you feel? Powerful? Important? Like an equal?

To answer your question, politeness gets mistaken for is sexism when it is not reciprocal.

After keeping a diary, the volunteers were asked to look back at their records and decide which incidents they thought were very, moderately or not at all sexist. Having done that both men and women were then much more aware of subtle forms of sexism that occurred on a daily basis.

This is why I referred to the DM article (I know, I know, sorry). No one has put a spin on this. The participants of the study were asked to decide if they felt a behaviour was sexist, and the participants included men as well as women. I'd say that if most of them felt opening a door was sexist, which I presume they must have done for it to be the leading 'fact' taken from the study, then they probably felt that it was sexist rather than just politeness. I know I'd interpret it very differently depending on what I felt about the man opening the door. Most people - men and women - opening a door for me I just take as politeness, but there are the odd one or two that are definitely doing it for 'chivalrous' (benevolent sexism) reasons.

Alice - I didn't put that very well.

Imagine you don't know me at all but we go out for a business lunch. Just you and me. I hold the door open for you (not the underarm thing), I help take your coat, I ask if you would like the seat facing the wall or looking out into the restaurant and wait for you to sit down.

Not knowing how I treat men, how do you feel? Do you think 'sexist git'? What if I offered to pay? At what point does politeness between a man and woman get mistaken for sexism?

If a man does them to a women but not to men, it is sexist.

If a man does that to anyone regardless of their genitals, it is polite.

The point of the article was not 'bloody people opening doors for others, the cheek, how dare they be polite to others'.

Alice - "...if you do that for any guest, what has that got to do with sexism and romance?"

That is the point I was making. The article and thread seems to be labelling things (eg holding doors, waiting for someone else to sit down) as benevolent sexism when they are just politeness. Just because a man is polite to a woman doesn't mean he is a sexist. On the other hand, a man showing politeness and respect to a woman might be a good starting point for a romance.

Beenbeta - if you do that for any guest, what has that got to do with sexism and romance? I do all sorts of polite things for guests, but I'm not going to mention them here because it has nothing to do with sexist behaviour as I don't provide or withhold my politeness on the basis of sex. Nor do I do them to be romantic.

Butterbur - DW likes it and was most insistent I did it from when we first started dating.

smartypants/Alice - I would wait for any guest and ask if they had a seat preference before taking a seat at a restaurant table. I don't get up when she gets up unless it is the end of the meal.

does anybody recall the near physical fight caused by the question of who would hold the door for whom at the palestinian/israeli peace talks between barak and arafat, i think around 1999/2000? i can recall thinking at the time that this was a pretty clear cut problem with being feminised by the other's 'courtesy.' and this is the problem, surely, with this kind of 'benevolence', that it's just a non-violent expropriation of power?

by these subtle acts are hierarchies maintained. and the fact that it is done unconsciously, and that the door openers/chair offerers/parking 'assistants' would take great offence at the suggestion doesn't make it any less the case.

I hate, hate, hate, the fucking walking under the armpit thing!! Why do they do it?

I had one in the past when I wasn't "allowed" to fix the photocopier because as a woman I wouldn't understand it. He was told where to go.

MoreBeta - if it were just politeness why would you only do it to a woman? You don't see a need to bestow politeness on a man? How odd.

Smartypants - me fucking too! I only have one guy at work who does that, and it drives me mad. Today I said, 'it's fine I am an adult'.

MoreBeta, why do you wait until she's seated in a restaurant? Do you also get up every time she does?

i work in an area of the building where i share a staircase and kitchen with the (all male) estates team. they are nice guys but they really do truly tie themsleves in knots to hold doors for me and they make me to that really really cringingly horrible thing where they make me walk UNDER THEIR ARMPIT while they hold the door, rather than let me take it from them.

I FUCKING HATE IT!

[and i still had to have strong words with one of them who assumed i would sort out the shared photocopier, not because i have anything to do with IT or admin but i assume because i have a uterus. ]

You take her hand as she gets off trains? Is she particularly frail? Disabled? Otherwise incapable of getting off them by herself? I don't have any particular issue with the rest, but I would find that bloody annoying.

OK, I read the article and all the thread and I still dont know what the heck it's all about.

I open doors for men and women. Actually, I would help a woman open a heavy door rather than just stand and watch her struggle. I get mildly annoyed when men/women let doors slam in my face. I get really annoyed when people sail through a door I am holding open without taking it from me or acknowledging me. Women seem to do this last one a lot more than men - maybe they really are annoyed with me for holding the door.

People compliment me on my cooking and I like it. I compliment other people on their cooking.

I walk on the outside of DW on a pavement because we like to walk arm in arm sometimes. I wait until she is seated in a restaurant and ask her which seat she prefers. I take her hand as she gets off trains and buses and carry suitcases and heavy bags for her.

Politeness surely.

I agree - we should hold doors open for everyone!

I work in a very male dominated environment and the one thing I encounter constantly which drives me nuts is blokes apologising for swearing in front of me.

As indeed it is polite and common sense to pull your weight around the house. It isn't a master/servant relatsionship, it's a partnership.