Benevolent sexism - should men hold doors open?!

Beta - just amble in the direction of the seat so she gets there first anyway. Then its up to her to assess the relative need

I maintain that the non-gendered polite thing to do would be to let the outside person come in first, as they are standing in the wind and the rain and I am in the nice warm indoors.

Yes, unless the door in question is on a train.

Irksome - I don't know which is sexist. Me barging her or me offering the seat. As I say, tricky.

Grimma - I recall a 14 yr old girl offered me her seat on a bus some 10 years ago. I was mortified.

RedHotPokers I work in an environment filled with feminist women and feminist-supporting men. We recently had to instigate a rota for taking minutes because although it's voluntary, no man ever volunteers and the women always had to pick up the slack (after leaving it an excruciating five minutes by the clock to make the point).

Where does the thread stand on inside/outside door-holding? It was PISSING it down yesterday, and as I was leaving the petrol station a man was entering. He had hold of the door and had got there first - but he was getting wet, so I waved him in. He waved me out. I waved him in. He waved me out. Then I caved because he was getting wetter and wetter.

I maintain that the non-gendered polite thing to do would be to let the outside person come in first, as they are standing in the wind and the rain and I am in the nice warm indoors.

Just a few more years, Beta, and able bodied women will be offering you the seat

How do you mean? Barge her out of the way because you're afraid you'll look sexist if you don't?

I don't think that's very tricky!

minipie - I agree but it seems even politeness can be misconstrued.

Is it OK to use my strength and size to compete for a seat on the tube before an able bodied woman gets it or should I offer her the seat anyway?

That is a tricky one.

MoreBeta it's pretty simple. If it's something you'd do for anyone, out of politeness, then it's fine.

If it's something you do for your DW, because she has told you she likes it, then it's fine.

If it's something you do for women, because they are women, then it's not fine.

what, like he'd open the door all lasciviously, and stroke its handle meaningfully? .

i would hold a door open for anyone , male or female if they were 1-10 seconds behined me , and i was walking through the same door. i wouldnt jump up to open a door i wasnt walking through myself unless they were in a wheelchair or a pregnant woman for example.
but, what if the man opening the door for the woman was part of a flirtation they had going on? would that be ok?

People should hold doors open for other people coming through behind them.

People should hold doors open and allow other more vulnerable/encumbered/(and, arguably, senior) people to go through before them (depending on layout, circumstances, etc. -- sometimes it's more practical to open the door and let whoever is coming up behind you go through first regardless of whether their need is greater than yours).

A second X chromosome is, admittedly, larger than a Y chromosome, but does not constitute being "encumbered". And all women are not automatically above or below all men.

But if someone you don't know does hold the door open for you and you suspect it's on account of your gender it is generally polite just to smile and say "Thank you" rather than swear at them or embark on a discussion of modern feminism (there are exceptions). Because in most cases they are just doing what they have been taught it's polite to do without really thinking about why.

DH occasionally holds my hand when I get off trains, because on one of the stations we use it's a bloody big jump down to the platform from my perspective (especially if I am pregnant or have a child in a sling and can't see where my feet are going) and he's a lot taller than me so it's not a bloody big jump down for him. But not at other stations as a matter of course.

Yes exactly. If something makes the other person unhappy/uncomfortable it is by default not good manners.

'Good manners' is foremost about putting other people at ease.

What I find deeply confusing is how insulted some men get when they realize we don't necessarily want the door held open/ them to stand up/held with our coats ... surely if they really wanted to be courteous they wouldn't mind if we said no?

I used to have a class with a very old-fashioned guy. First lesson, halfway through, our female supervisor walked in to get something so (as per usual) we ignored her and continued to concentrate. The old guy gave the men in the room a big talking-to about standing up for a lady when she enters the room, etc., and predictably the female supervisor cut in to say actually she didn't need that and would prefer we concentrated on the lesson. His response? 'It's not about what you would prefer, it's about good manners.

mumbling aargh, I hate the whole cheek kissing thing, especially for people I barely know. I kiss my husband, son and dog. I'm really not bothered about anyone else!

I think there is a difference between going ahead to open a door and allow someone to go through before you, and holding a door for someone behind you. I think the first is traditionally what men did for women and older people whereas the second is what generally done by people of any gender these days out of politeness.

I open the door if I get to it first, and despite being a woman and younger than most of my male colleagues I was often in a senior position to them, just to make it all more complicated. On an ageist note though, teenagers are always surprised when I hold a door open if they are behind me, sadly I think they are often the one group people dont feel the need to be courteous to.

And to throw another example into the mix, if we had to travel to visit the client I would hire and drive the car with my male colleagues in the passenger/back seats. They never presumed that they would drive just because they were men.

Ah well, you need some judgement as to whether the door is excessively heavy/stiff. The rule is primarily to cover small children and the infirm, but - as a small person of limited upper body strength - I've been glad at times for a strapping lad (or lass) to shove a door for me. In general, assume an adult female can manage a door, by all means lend a hand to anyone who is struggling!

I hold doors open for men and women alike and expect the same courtesy. I have sometimes encountered men who won't shake hands with me but want to frigging kiss my cheek instead...now that pee's me off!

..... but PurpleStrawberry complained up the thread about a man helping her to open a heavy door in a store.

Yep Grimma. Pretty straightforward really.

Simple rules of door opening.
If one person is encumbered, other person gets door.
If door is excessively heavy and one person is obviously stronger, strong person gets door.
Otherwise, whoever gets there first opens door.

Does that cover it?

Alice - I confess to being unsure what you want me to do now. Hold the door open for you or deliberatley hang back in the hope you get to the door first.

Custardo - I wouldn't stand up and offer my seat to a random woman on the train/bus unless she was pregnant.

Morebeta - you've headed just where I hoped you might. I introduced the power element in the form of pay to make a link to sexism that might be less apparent if you don't experience it.

You talk about the less well paid man opening the door being polite whereas the well paid man opening the door being sexist. No, that would not be my experience. Living in a world where men (as a group) are more powerful than women (as a group) any man doing things to me because I am a woman introduces that power relationship into the situation. And I don't really want to be reminded of that every time I walk through a door.

Of course in personal relationships there are whole bunch of other rules, signals, cues etc. that render that element less meaningful. Of course my husband does all sorts of things that if a random man did them would come across differently. But it's not personal relationships that are important in this discussion.

But to neuter the mundane activities that perpetuate the world we live in as meaningless, as if they are in a bubble that has no link to the world as a whole, does not work.

A single incident of opening a door can't be labelled as sexist or not because you can't tell if the person doing it would do exactly the same if you were XY rather than XX.

A pattern, however, can certainly be labelled as gender-blind politeness or "benevolent" sexism.

As plenty of people before me have said it comes down to intent and context.

I have to admit when I first started my current job colleagues (who are nearly all male) would try and get the door every time. Once I had forced my way to opening it and letting them through first they soon started following the concept of the door getter/holder is the person it makes the most logistical sense. We always thank each other despite the fact we often reciprocate straight away as there are two door into the lab

Same for me and DH, the person holding the luggage depends on the situation. Generally he holds the heavier stuff as lugging as I appreciate the break from lugging my stuff to work (which gives me a sore back). When faced with the London Underground however I end up taking everything as he struggles to keep up follows me like he's in a strange foreign country with exotic customs

I think it is important to bring up these 'little things' as they happen and strive to do so.