Benevolent sexism - should men hold doors open?!

Some years ago I worked in the UK, US and in Europe. In the US, there was a lot of what I call 'PC jumping through hoops' that went on. The fear of lawsuits had reached such a pitch that men used to go through all sorts of ridiculous contortions on what gender neutral words they chose in a sentence, deliberately looking at the floor or walls as women passed in corridors and yet at the same time thinking nothing of excluding women frm key meetings, schmoozng on all male golf/fishing weekends and attending lap dancing clubs at regular intervals.

The danger is we get to such a pitch that men won't dare offer any kind of polite gesture to a woman and it still won't make a jot of difference to how women are treated on the issues that matter.

I know perfectly well what you mean by the patronising connotation that goes with some door opening but I think I agree with the article:

"Much more serious, however, is the damage that this sort of overwrought hand-wringing does to the name of feminism, by making people believe the old canard that it?s all about women scowling if a man is courteous enough to hold open a door for them. There is plenty of material for both women and the numerous men who care about the dignity of women to get properly angry about."

MoreBeta I don't think anyone on this thread has said that it's offensive for a man to hold the door open for them or offer them a seat.

It's only offensive when it is accompanied by some element of being patronising (which includes "I'm holding the door/offering you my seat because you're a woman and therefore inherently weaker").

You can safely continue to hold doors open and offer seats. Just do it for men as well.

yes, that's exactly what I am saying: I think it's missing the point to say that the world is full of strident crop-haired feminists who would castrate a man for opening a door. And it seems to be being used as an excuse for saying that feminism is impossible to understand, because how would all those ladies like it if we smashed their faces into doors instead, hmmmm?

Open doors for people if they're nearby: I do it all the time, it's common courtesy. Don't open doors for them because they are women.

I wouldn't offer a seat except in cases of obvious need - and being a woman isn't one of those. It's just patronizing.

irksome - while your Grandad's old fashioned attitudes are obviously very annoying and for obvious reasons. Surely though, you can separate his door opening politeness from his other less admirable traits? One does not necessarily lead to the other.

I just dont want to live in a world where I have to think twice before I open a door or offer a woman my seat just in case she might get offended. There are a lot bigger issues out there.

And indeed, unthinking references to 'a man and his wife'.

I would never be offended by a man opening a door for me, I'd think 'ah bless, what an old-fashioned chap' - it's the sort of thing my grandad would do.

However, my grandad also says things like 'ladies never understand how hobs work', and I generally find that opening doors isn't really the issue: it's the subtle gradations between that and 'do you want me to guide you out' and 'would you like me to reverse that out for you' and then 'ha, ladies and parking, eh!' - and those things are offensive.

OK. I'll come off the fence.

I think women who get offended by a man giving up his seat, opening a door, waiting for them to be seated or taking their coat really need to get over themselves.

Politeness in society seems to have been replaced by casual ignorance and selfishness and just because a man makes a polite gesture should not elicit suspicion or hostility from a woman.

If a woman opened a door for another woman it would never cause offence but if a man did it then it might. That is just plain silly.

I don't want to see a return to 1950s attitudes but we seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

:o at Oppression Olympics

Oh I see, so the point is we have to pick between 'them over there' or suck up what we have here. How about we just work towards a world where we don't have to have these discussion? How about we don't play oppression Olympics as some sideshow to addressing inequality?

Are you being deliberately obtuse, Beta?

Of course we would prefer a culture in which people sometimes stand up for women: if the woman were pregnant or was elderly or looked ill or appeared to have trouble standing or had lots to carry or was encumbered with children who could sit on their lap if they had a seat.

All the exact same reasons why one might give up a seat for a man (men can't get pregnant but if they could I imagine they'd like to be able to sit down).

Able-bodied unemcumbered people should give up their seats for people who need the seat more. Simply being a woman does not mean that you need the seat more. Suggesting that it does is patronising and will have the effect (even if unintentional) of making the woman feel weaker and less capable.

Isn't the point it shouldn't be a choice. The decision should not be sexed based

No the man was just shocked when he came up against the cultural difference where in one culture a man would never ever consider standing up for a woman whereas in the UK a man would stand up for a woman at least sometimes.

I wonder which is worse? Never standing up for a woman or sometimes standing up for a woman. Which culture would women prefer? Would women in the UK prefer men to never stand up for them?

On a programme about body language a few years back I saw the Arafat / Barak clip referred to upthread, where they are fighting to usher each other through the door first. Basically the usherer then becomes the one in control, the one effectively saying "you are a guest on my territory". Interesting implications for the one-way door opening gender thing.

So what was the the Man's point? That here, women (wives?) are first class citizens?

Or "a woman and her husband"

... or even 'a man and his wife'.

MoreBeta wrote - "a couple of friends (man and wife)"

On a thread about benevolent sexism.

Alternatives include "man and woman" or "husband and wife".

I know it's an etiquette minefield but I hope that helps.

We had a couple of friends (man and wife) to stay with us this weekend. They are in their mid 60s and had been visiting the Middle East and the man described how he had stood on a metro train to give an old woman carrying heavy shopping his seat. The woman and the entire carriage just stared at him. There were lots of young men sat down but not one would have stood up for the woman because women are second class cittizens.

Kind of an interesting take on this thread I thought.

"you touch their arm and say "did you want to sit down". "

Can you imagine the explosion on here if that actually happened?

not only has the man got into your personnal space by touching you, he is then condescending enough to ask you if you want to sit down.

which puts us right back at the beginning of this thread.

I think men and women should hold doors open for men and women.

this

Exactly Irksome.

MoreBeta we all know that the Unwritten Rule on the tube is that the person nearest the vacated seat gets it. If someone is nearer than you and doesn't appear to have seen the seat, you touch their arm and say "did you want to sit down". Then if they say no, you can go for the seat. In no circumstances can you barge past anyone to get to a seat - man or woman.

But you knew all that already, come on.

The doors are nothing - will hold a door for a guy and am happy if he does so for me. Will give up my seat in the bus for a guy who has children, shopping, looks ill or tired or if I'm getting off soon. Don't sweat the small stuff. It's the workplace stuff I can't stand - women talk too much, women can't handle technical work, women can't handle the larger projects blah, blah, blah, . Everyone should be able to look after their own bodily needs and do simple DIY etc, iron, shop, cook. Can't abide men or women who expect to be waited on. Can't abide the stereotyping. Just off to put down more insulation in the loft, going for girly shopping with daughter tomorrow. (Then will paint the Forth Bridge, & up run a little chiffon number before donning my tutu for a few grands jetes). Now, where did I put the car jack?

Oh for heaven's sake, barging is rude, it would be rude who ever did it. Don't pretend that you're so flummoxed by this modern feminist business that you're now unsure of whether to barge people out of the way or not!