Is this a ^feminist^ issue?

I've long had doubts about the 12-Step Programmes and their insistence on humiliating people and guilt-tripping them - a friend of mine who suffered from an eating disorder went to an Overeaters Anonymous meeting and came back very distressed - FFS eating disorders tend to afflict people who already feel guilty, shameful and bad, making them feel more so is not going to help them.

(I posted this in aibu, but I think it is relevant to this thread, too)

It seems that in 2010, Paul E. Clearly, Trustee of the General Service Board of AA, Inc. submitted a report about child sexual abuse in AA to the GSB?s Subcommittee on Vulnerable Members in AA (I know!). He detailed several shocking instances of predation and implored the GSB to take responsibility for the safety of AA?s most vulnerable members. He concludes:

'For a host of moral, ethical, and legal reasons, it?s time for the General Service Board to provide leadership in addressing the issue of child sexual abuse in AA.

Read Paul Cleary?s very revealing 7-page report, ?Predators in AA?.

He draws attention to the concerns of people in the UK at the beginning of the report. I think it is highly commendable that not only do the leadership of AA acknowledge the problems of sexual predation, rape and abuse of minors, but they are now looking to find a way to deal with it, without compromising the ideals of the fellowship.

stinkin-thinkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/ATTACHMENT_TO_TOPIC_002-PREDATORS.doc.pdf

The worst thing they could do would be to pretend that it does not go on. Hats off to the AA leadership for being seen to address this terrible situation.

Great article from www.stinkin-thinkin.com

I feel it is important to warn parents about the dangers of attending AA and NA meetings.There are alternatives!

<a class="break-all" href="//www.nadaytona.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.nadaytona.org</a>

I am in America.I do post global stories all related to the harm to children and others from AA/NA members. I do have people on the site that are from thr UK. This is a global topic!

I will try to make this a direct link

www.nadaytona.org

Jingo62,

I agree with you about the analogy between the Catholic church and AA.
I do not understand how the church or AA/NA continue to look the other way
in regards to sexual abuse against minors. The Catholic church has been exposed,thus they have some safety measures in place. But it is not enough.
Churches in general still try to deal with sexual abuse against minors
internally-instead of reporting it to the police. AA and NA do NOTHING at all about the crimes against children on their watch.

There is a community website that I help with at www.nadaytona.org
This site is designed to expose the dangers to minors and young people that attend AA/NA meetings. This includes people who bring there small children to meetings with them. Children cannot emotionally deal with multiple addicts horror stories. It is hard enough that they have had to deal with the parents addiction.But to listen to 50 or more addicts/alcoholics troubles is not healthy for children. It is also dangerous that they are in the company of court mandated felons that attend Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous.

Great site here!

Jingo62, AyeRobot,

There is a parallel with the Catholic church to a point as regards secrecy but AA do not have a power structure and their own State, like the Vatican. There was a documentary on the S.A. scandal a few years ago, where it was revealed that the FBI alone were seeking to arrest 6 paeodophile priests who had been given refuge in the Vatican. This would not happen with AA, obviously.
I think one reason why media coverage has been quiet here is that it is more likely to cause the cuprits to scatter; that and confidentiality issues. I suspect that there are investigations ongoing as we speak and much will depend on what the mother reveals under interrogation.
Lastly, given the level of intrusion of AA and their "sponsors" into the lives of their members, there will be others that were confided in and knew what was going on.
I can't see this issue getting brushed under the carpet.

Jingo, I wrote and deleted a para in one of my posts saying exactly that about the similarity with the Catholic Church and the abuse cover up. The anonymity aspect (like the confessional) is one reason why this won't get far, though of course I am furious that it won't. The posters on Stinkin Thinkin are much more coherent about that aspect than I am. How would the police find these men? They turn up to meetings, give a first name (real or false) and then can disappear into the ether just as soon as they have arrived. No records kept, a cult of anonymity (some would say secrecy) and a "what is said in the rooms stays in the rooms" mentality, along with the cult of fellowship which means that people are trusted way before they have given reason that they can be. Add in a lack of leadership (when it is convenient) and the police are at a dead end. I am surprised by the lack of publicity over here - that is the only way the police are going to get anywhere, because they will have to rely on people coming forward rather than doing on the ground investgations. Maybe now the verdicts are in, things will start to move.

I will contact WYP and see what they have to say.

Welcome, friendthegirl! As I said above, your post was amazing. You've really put into words some of my disquiet about the 12 Step based recovery movement from a feminist perspective. And yes, spontaneous recovery from havy or alcoholic drinking is the norm, despite what AAers try and tell you.

Now I have a few years distance, it is quite amazing to me to see the bigger picture, both from a feminist perspective and from a WTF viewpoint. As it stands in the US under your healthcare set-up, the disease model of addiction will never go away because rehabs rely on insurance funding the treatment so needs addiction to be defined as a disease, which they supply using 12 Step methodology (which is also cheap), which stresses the disease model. Anything up to (and probably over) $30,000 to stay in a hotel for a month and go to an AA meeting every day!

I'm not sure that we have it any better over here, btw, except brief interventions and medication seem to be more mainstream, perhaps. And a raging alcohol culture, but it was ever thus.

Jingo, AA conventiently "has no opinion on outside issues", which incidents like this rapidly become when convenient. It is not an organisation like Relate or Rotary or similiar. It is more like a franchise operation, I suppose. So don't be surprised if you don't hear a peep. I think that because there have been no charges laid here, there is silence on this side of the Pond in general.

Hi mumsnet. I so appreciate your discussion of my post! Thank you!

I wanted to respond to HerBeX's observation about the friend who's been sober for 18 years, after 3 years of AA: You might be interested in the NIAAA's reporting on the NESARC study which validates her experience with alcohol dependence. It demonstrates that most people with alcohol dependency or addiction will recover (or "mature out") on their own. Here's the link: www.spectrum.niaaa.nih.gov/features/alcoholism.aspx

And I wanted to also address the notion that people who were once dependent can never again hope to drink "normally" or in moderation (which is also addressed in the NESARC study): This is true for some people, but it is also one of those self-fulfilling prophesies promoted by the recovery industry, that keeps people in a state of permanent dependence upon recovery -- in a perpetual state of high vigilance over relapse, and dismissive of the idea that it's possible for someone who drinks abusively to ever be "normal." It's a variation on the "powerless" theme, and one of those pieces of conventional recovery wisdom that has its roots in the spiritual disease model of addiction.

I'm not saying that abstinence is not a valid choice by any means, only that there is a wide spectrum of valid choices one can make. The decision should be made based on one's self-knowledge and priorities, not on one's sense of powerlessness.

Thank you all for hearing me out. I have to say, the silence from the US feminist-sphere has been deafening so far.

Jingo62,

Is she being deported? I understood she is being charged in the US, where she is a permanent resident along with her scumbag boyfriend. Both face life for A.S.A on a child so they are both about to become very vulnerable inmates in a U.S. prison.
Neither of them are likely to attend any more AA meetings.
What may happen in terms of Pontefract is that the mother may reveal details of the English abusers as part of a plea bargain.

Yes absolutely agree with Snorbs re the uselessness of this insistence that you should continue to allow a past addiction to dominate your life by attending meetings for ever afterwards.

I've got a friend who was an alcoholic (although AA would insist that she is a recovering alcoholic) for about 3-5 years of her life. She has been sober for 18 years now and in the first 3 or so years of her sobriety she continued to attend AA meetings. Then she realised that she didn't actually need them anymore - she really doesn't want to get drunk anymore. So she stopped going and alcohol is simply not something she thinks about. AA would insist that she is suffering false pride, that she could easily fall into old habits because she doesn't have the crutch of AA... thinking about it, it's a thoroughly disempowering philosophy, one that tells you that something that you did for maybe 3 years of your life, has to dominate the rest of your life forever.

Sorry if it's a bit off a sidebar to your original post, Jingo, but for sheer mind-numbing stupidity, have you checked this long running site? If not, it's well worth it.
www.darwinawards.com/darwin - 61k

Note how few of the recipients are female, although "Ride 'Em Cowgirl " gets an honorable mention.
In fact, search the site for "Lawnchair Larry" and try and imagine such a hair-brained scheme even occurring to a woman.
Some idiots don't even have the excuse of drunkenness.

i agree with Tyr and Snorbs.
it also bothers me that sometimes men go to these places to pick up vurenable women.