Top Tips for not-yet-a-mum Feminists, please?

Hi everyone.

I am so sorry - I posted this thread then stopped replying to the excellent comments halfway through. I was having a thesis crisis (now over, thank god, but it was painful). I'm partly replying to say thanks because I have really appreciated reading your advice, and partly to bump this thread because ironing has just started one about being a mum and feminism, and I thought the two might be interesting to the same people.

Thanks again, everyone.

thank you for this thread LRD - i am also not yet a mum and some of the issues that have come up on here are things that dp and I have spoken about.

one thing from my own situation is that dp is a secondary school teacher whereas i'm in an office-based business job. this means that (assuming i would go back to work, which is likely but I know htat it's difficult to know exactly what the situation post-dc might be) he would have almost three times as much holiday as me, which would be positive in terms of him taking on an equal share of the childcare

i actually work in a business that has quite a lot of women at a high level, though not beyond a certain point. most of the senior men and women have children, and from observation it seems that the problem for the women in terms of going higher is the increased amount of travel. the men with children all have wives/partners who either don't work or have jobs that mean they can take care of the children while the men travel. the women have husbands/partners who have to travel themselves and their h's travel seems to take priority (or their hs aren't prepared to support it - i don't know personal circustances well enough).

I worry about this, because i am ambitious. however, i admit I encouraged dp to become a secondary school teacher (he wanted to obviously and loves his job), which although is not flexible in term times and can involve residential trips, it means if/when we have children his job could better complement mine than other jobs might, because he has more holiday and less last-minute travel. likewise, I am in an industry where i can easily work from home if necessary. I don't like to always because i like being around my colleagues, but if we had a child who was ill i could look after them. it seems calculated perhaps, especially as it is unlikely that we will have children for a few years, but we have discussed this quite a bit

So many interesting points here, given me lots to think about.

Ephiny I feel the same way as you. Certainly not broody and in two minds as to whether this is the right thing to do. But to counteract that, I'm also feeling that we're running out of time and I certainly don't want to get caught in a situation where I change my mind but find I've left it too late. I think seeing friends dealing with infertility has definitely affected my view on this. Having said that, I'd prefer to adopt anyway (because of the health issues everyone has mentioned - I have a history of depression and am terrified of PND) if DH would agree to that so for me I don't think it would be the end of the world if we couldn't have our own.

I have to say PrinceHumperdink does have a point - I would give it a year or two -between 30 and 33 say isn't a massive difference in terms of conceiving - in my view -

do you have things you or your DH would really like to do - like travel, work, study house things etc - that would be more difficult when you have children
and perhaps explore a bit why you are not interested - not that there is anything wrong with not being of course -
and maybe you and DH spend some more time with/look after some children - you might find it more fun/interesting than you think or not of course
also getting finances in a really good state is very helpful - personally we never had a much spare money the few years just before we had kids -

MovingandScared - I'm 30, and feeling slightly more as though I might be able to manage having and looking after a child than I used to in my 20s. But don't feel anything like that strong urge or need for a child that people describe. It just isn't there :( Maybe it will come with age, but if we're going to do it, it seems sensible not to wait too much longer to start trying. And while I'm uninterested in other people's children, everyone says 'it's different when it's your own'...

DP does more household organisation/planning stuff than I do, he keeps track of and buys general houeshold supplies and dog stuff, he's the one who organised a cleaner for us, and remembers to have the money to pay her and reminds me when we need to tidy up for her, he normally plans any shared social engagements (though I do holidays usually), he actually changed to flexible hours at work (even though this is a bit frowned upon in his sector) so he could be at home more with the dogs. So I guess there's a reasonable chance that he'll do at least his fair share with the child, though of course you never know until it happens. I don't think there'll be any question of me as the default carer, that role just isn't me at all. I'm generally the less practical one in the relationship.

ephiny - how old are you - if you don't mind me asking - as it can be something that feels stronger with age - and if you are not that bothered I would make sure that your DH is very on side with support - as I think its particularly unfair if that's the case- seen it in a couple of my friends - they were less keen but went along with it - careers badly affected and it turns out the husbands liked more the idea of having children than the actual reality - not that either are bad people or fathers - both also friends of mine - but they are a lot less present/helpful than I would be happy about
I agree just because you are a feminist that is not a reason not to want children, it was just a very strong feeling for me -

ooh this thread is so interesting.
As to why have children/babies - because they smell amazing, are delightful and entertaining, and I absolutely HAD to have at least one. I'm crazy about babies and children - am a very proud aunt to lots of little ones, and felt sure from an early age I wanted to be a mother. DH was even more broody, and we were both upfront about it from the moment we met (weirdos, I know!) so that was simple. There is no reason to do it, and certainly no one should. But we just had to, IYSWIM.

The health stuff is important - DS is very healthy so far, we've been lucky, but I spent the entirety of my first trimester either asleep, being exhausted, or feeling extremely sick. DH had to do all the food stuff (and wasn't allowed to even fry an onion some days!) and all the laundry (I couldn't cart it up and down 3 flights of stairs) and clean the bathroom (I couldn't bend without throwing up) - and I had a relatively uncomplicated pregnancy - nothing out of the ordinary. If he had been a bastard about it then - if he had so much as murmured, frankly - I would have lost my shit about it, because I had to be pregnant and he didn't and I hated being pregnant. I went to bed at around 6.15 most evenings (having got home at 5.45) and we barely ever had sex or even cuddled, I just felt too awful. DH had to work hard to not feel rejected and unloved and the unpaid housemaid, I think.

Second trimester was a lot better, but I had constant heartburn. Third trimester I was just a big puffy hot thing with a raging horn (that's what the men like, you know, enormous women who cry at the drop of a hat and then try to jump their bones...) - I had to struggle with my OWN internalized patriachal values, too. "I'm hideous" and "What if I'm a bad mother", etc.

It just so happens that DH was glorious at that stuff, and either honestly did find me attractive all the time I was pg or is a damn good liar - but yeah, it's tricky. He did a lot more housework when I was pg than he ever did before, because I simply couldn't - in the last 2 weeks I was so swollen up I couldn't grip things properly - and that was a good inkling that he'd do a fair share in the following weeks.

Second whoever says get your DH to go to 4 days at once, and you get a day to be your own self. I went back to work VERY early 3 days a week, and DH did the childcare drop off - that helped keep things on an even keel, I think. I also had a "I put food in, you change nappies" deal with him for the first 3-6 months, which gave him a special role. . . and therefore an area of expertise. When I wasn't BFing I gave him the baby... tried not to tell him how to do it...

It's very hard.

Ephiny - the short answer to your question is 'family'. I wanted children because I wanted to be part of a regenerating family, not one that gradually died out. I wanted new people as part of that, but I never wanted 'a baby' in the broody sense of the world, and I've always thought of my producing a child being for my family, rather than just for me, and it certainly shouldn't fall on my shoulders to do all the childcare or other 'female' roles. It just happens that I'm the one with the right biological equipment to grow it!! I don't think the fact that China, India, some parts of Africa, arguably the UK are overpopulated and sometimes struggling with resources really comes into the decision. After all, there are too many cars on this earth too, doesn't mean I don't want one to make my life better.

LRD - actually no, I am the more ambitious, less houseproud one. Currently sole earner with SAHD, but we have done all different variations on work an childcare. We did move to the suburbs though, and all the mum friends have made here are in that situation I describe - smart, qualified women who didn't mean to give up their careers but somehow did. Their DHs salaries and their mortgage payments so overtook their earning power when they took a few years off, that there was never a good time to go back, and now they've left it so long they've lost confidence and connections.

MovingAndScared I did not know this about midwife led units, thanks for sharing.

Ephiny we actually didn't feel we had much choice in the matter - just a very very strong urge to have a child.

Karma to answer the rest of your question tbh DH didn't take much interest in babies or children until DD was born. He read some 'funny' books about pg and childbirth, came to scans and took on more as I was so tired, but that's about it. I became very inward focused when pregnant which probably didn't help much.

When she was born it all changed though and he was completely into her and other children too.

One other thing - make sure your free time is equal. This drove me up the wall - DH thinking just because DD was asleep he could go out and leave me to it.

I hated his assumption that I would always be there, as it implies he is just helping out, rather than taking shared responsibility. I used to tally up his little 'poppings out' which was petty I know but he got the message.

with confidence with child
My Dh probably had more experience of babies as he had much younger siblings - but to honest didn't make much difference as its totaly different having your own - the only thing that really helps is to have other new parents around and mumsnet of course to reasure you that its normal!
my DH was great with my DSs - but I would just say here you are - I am off to bed etc - I tried not to micro manage
when I went back to work he had a few days of looking after Ds1 on his own - so I knew he could do it
longish parternity leave helps
some midwife units have room for partners to stay over BTW
I think the key is to work out what is going to work for you as family -
ob have to adjust as you go along -
so I don't mind doing more housework as I am not working full time -I would mind doing it all
I don't mind doing the planning but DH does the weekly shop mainly
I would mind doing all the pickups - and couldn't have done my previous job if I had to

• I did most of the nights with DS2 as I was BF but DH would get up early with the boys and let me sleep in re travel - I think that is an issue - and you have to talk to your DH about how you make it work - he may have to travel less and/or work out some kind of childcare/or working arrangment that works for you

I'm a not-yet-a-mum feminist too, good idea for a thread LRD :)

One thing I've been meaning to ask is about the decision to have children in the first place, from a feminist perspective. Given that we have too many people in the world already, that as feminists we understand that a woman doesn't have a duty or obligation to have babies, that we shouldn't feel that reproducing is necessary for us to be fulfilled or feel like a 'proper' woman, that sometimes what we feel we want to do or should do comes from cultural and societal pressures that we should 'unpack' rather than blindly following, that the birth of children very often leads to a fairly equal relationship becoming very 'traditional' in terms of gender roles, that research shows that having children (especially more than one) tends to make women less happy not more)...I'm interested in why feminists do decide to have children.

I'll start another thread if it's too much of a side-track. Please don't feel I'm criticising or judging anyone's decision, I'm not a militant child-free type and will probably be trying to get pregnant fairly soon myself! Just genuinely interested in people's reasons.

My reasons are basically: because DP is very keen to have a child, and because I have a vague sense that since so many people have them, there must be some reason, and I'll be missing out on something if I don't. I probably wouldn't bother if I didn't have a partner who was keen though.

Re: your career - especially if it is important to you, or you feel it defines you in some way, rather than just being a means to earn money. Remember that your career is somewhere in the region of 45 years long, so in the grand scheme of things, scaling it back or even taking a complete break for three or four years will not make you less 'valuable' to society, or less of a feminist, or weaker, or 'a housewife'. You are simply taking up a priceless opportunity (finances permitting) to do something amazing for a while. Celebrate that, and the fact that you as a woman have that chance, whereas many men don't.

LRD & Karma -

Good questions. I think it is so important to think and talk about this stuff early on, and keep talking about it, and expecting that your DH to be as flexible as you are.

Even in the most loving and good relationships, if the man is marginally more ambitious than the woman, and the woman is marginally more houseproud, a year or two of maternity leave can transform you from a basically equal partnership into traditional roles.

I think it really sets in with two children, if you EBF and take a year of maternity leave then by the end of the year you have put in so much more time with your DD/DS that you are the relative expert in that department. You can do stuff better than he can, particularly the planning side of the household.Then you go back to work (but you 'own' the relationship with the childminder etc..) and where everyone assumes you are just back for a short tine before your next maternity leave. And sure enough you are. Then the second time round because you are BFing the baby and on mat leave, it's easier for you to do everything to look after the older one at the same time. So at the end of that year it's you who knows all the drs, dentists, food preferences, playgrounds etc... You have a bunch of mummy friends while your DH's relationships are still firmly embedded in his work.

Which is not a reason not to have two, not to BF etc.., not to take your full mat leave, but is a reason to be aware of how these patterns set in.

Karma - I would be woried about your DH will take time off if he needs to. It sounds like he is thinking of it as a favour to you, 'babysitting' etc....

My top tips (some have already been said)

• be a bit of a slob/not too precious about the housework
• the same about your children - try to avoid the whole PFB thing where you read 1001 books and have fixed ideas about how to do it.
• decide actively if you want to be a FT SAHM in tge LT nd if you don't work out some plans and scenarios so you don't end up in a situation where it's uneconomic for you to work.
• if you can at all afford it both take time off work from day 1 - e.g. DH goes down to 4 days/wk when you go on mat leave and you use 1 day a week to do a course, do some freelance work or something that will keep your career going over that year, and so that he doesn't get used to the idea that nothing has changed for him.
• be wary of moving to the suburbs, for cheaper housing, more space and better schools, it is harder to have an equal relationship when long commutes are involved.
• Enjoy it!

I agree with a lot of things blackcurrants said. I's also like to include children's health, as this can also have an impact on your relationship. And I don't just mean what happens when your normally very healthy child has a touch of the flu. My relationship started to become unequal when my ds2 was born with various problems that mean he needs a lot of physiotherapy and care. My plans to return to work have been scuppered, and although dh was trying to be supportive, he didn't realise how hard it was for me, or how tiring doing the physio was. We had to have a good talk about it.

Also, I would consider your relatives/ inlaws. My inlaws are very good about making comments about untidy houses (they see it as my job to sort it out), and if dh was not prepared to put them in their place and put a stop to it, this could be a problem. You can probably tell your own mum/ brother/ whatever to shut up, but you need your dh on board with regard to his relations.

karma someone talked about this on another thread recently and I thought it was a good idea. Instead of taking control and dealing with everything yourself you share the challenge by asking "DD has a nappy rash/doesn't like yoghurt/won't nap what do you think we should do?" etc rather than just sorting it out yourself.

It's so easy to get into the habit of doing things yourself because it's quicker and easier, but I think encouraging shared responsibility with the detail as well as the bigger picture stuff helps make things more equal.

Going back to paid work part time (DH looks after DD) really helped as he had to cope on his own. He also said that he bonded much more with her when I wasn't there.

Moving, for us, the problem is that DH travels a lot for work. So when he's at home, he'd be able to do the pick ups as he tends to leave work by 5.30 and work from home later if he needs to. But obviously if he's travelling, I'd struggle and sometimes he travels a lot. He says the next role won't be as bad, so we'll see how it is when he's bedded in.

Somerset, how do you think you could have encouraged your DH to gain the knowledge around babies and come up with his own way of dealing with her? Somehow I've already got more information on babies and children than DH and I can't just forget it all, so he can catch up. And even if I could, I wonder if he has enough interest to try to find stuff out. For example, I don't think I've ever heard him ask one of his friends about their experience of having children, while I ask mine all the time. (Obv, he asks if the kids are well etc, but doesn't take much more interest than that.)