Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

"I hadn't realised that I need to add feminist to my list of threads to keep off. Parenthood isn't a competition-it is a joint, equal enterprise."

Don't you recognise that in too many cases, parenthood is anything but a joint, equal enterprise? Your sentence IMO should read "it should be a joint equal enterprise." It's Pollyanna-ish to pretend that it isn't and it seems slightly unreasonable ot me to get so irked by the fact that one section of mumsnet points that out, that you determine to keep away from it.

I am the only girl in the family, my education was equal to my brothers and I didn't do anything in the way of washing up etc that they didn't do. Expectations were the same.
I have a huge problem with all this talk of heirarchy-it isn't something that I have experienced in family life. I don't see why women put up with it-surely you see the signs before you marry them or have DCs and run for the hills?! Or does it just happen if this is what you experienced and what you expected

This is the point exotic. Your personal experience is very rare IMO. Most women are not brought up overtly with expectations that they should also play second fiddle to men, it's never actually stated outright like that (well in some cases maybe). It's the covert messages that sink in and do the damage. The fact that all baby/cleaning product type adverts are always aimed at women and feature women. The fact that men are paid more than women for doing the same job. I can go on and list many more if you want me to? It all sends out the message that the man is the primary earner and the women takes care of house and home even if she has a job (career even) of her own. And the thing is for a lot of women, especially if they highly functional, well-organised and capable, is that they don't notice how unbalanced the relationship is until they reach a point where they can no longer manage it all.

Atomic - this sort of comment really irks me: But I do have a simple solution. When you find men like this, do not date them. Do not marry them. Ignore them. Sooner or later they will stop being this way.

If women were able to spot these men, they obviously would stop dating them. It's the fact that our patriarchal society has done such a bloody good job on disguising this behaviour as normal to a lot of women that is the problem. Do you think I feel like a fool now I have discovered feminism and look back on what I put up with in the past? You bet your life I do. But I am still the same person with the same background, experiences and education as I was when I didn't see this stuff for what it was. I have simply had my eyes opened, and that's what feminism is all about IMO. Opening women's eyes - consciousness raising if you want to call it that - is the very first step if we are going to get a serious chance at really changing this society for the better. Without enough women (and hopefully men too) on board, nothing will change.

Jealousy is not so strange though - people can be jealous of their own siblings of course, even though they love them a lot at other times.

(PS Sorry typo - "the New Man is very rare". Meant to say the New Man is likely a myth!)

I see where OP is coming from - the New Man myth is very rare. Most dads I know don't do 50-50 of the parenting, and seem to feel that having children means wife/partner at home a lot more, lots of free meals and housework done for him, more gratitude because wife/GF thinks she isn't contributing as much to the household income, and the kids are always ready with smiles when he can pull away from the tv or sports page to spend time with them......bit of a generalisation but many fellow mums I know feel the interesting, independent and helpful spouse or partner they had turns into an extra child once baby comes round..... (and of course, if their wife/partner is in work full time, then is effectively doing both work and SAHM roles when she picks up the kids from nursery/childminder, whereas he puts his feet up when he gets home.)

I think it's a little harsh to abandon all marriages.

But I do have a simple solution. When you find men like this, do not date them. Do not marry them. Ignore them. Sooner or later they will stop being this way.

But, of course, this is just if they are total arseholes. Everyone has flaws, both sides of the couple. And until everyone accepts the role of both husband and wife being equal and have an equal responsibility in raising their children (and obviously that the needs of the children outway the wants of the parent), divorce rates will continue the way they are.

but if you'd asked them what they thought about men and the way they had all the power I think they'd have told you not to be so ridiculous and get back to your drawing/embroidery/cooking etc.

Not my granny. Even when she was a young, single shop assistant she made sure she was treated with respect-the manager called her 'hey you', once-and after she put him right it was always Miss.......
My cousin has asked why I thought that our grandmother was more worried about the education of her daughters than his father (the only son) -and that was easy-she thought it was much easier for him so she put her efforts into the girls.
I am the only girl in the family, my education was equal to my brothers and I didn't do anything in the way of washing up etc that they didn't do. Expectations were the same.
I have a huge problem with all this talk of heirarchy-it isn't something that I have experienced in family life. I don't see why women put up with it-surely you see the signs before you marry them or have DCs and run for the hills?! Or does it just happen if this is what you experienced and what you expected?
I have never experienced it, didn't expect it and haven't got it. I get upset by all this talk of patriarchy because my DSs haven't experienced it in the family and are hardly likely to act that way and yet they seem to lumbered with the label because they are male and are being held responsible for thousands of years of history.

"Is this part of the reason for the current divorce rate now that you don't have to put up with sort of crap? "

Hi TheATomic... yes, that's the reason for the divorce rate. That and DV amongs other reasons. 70% of divorces are initiated by women.

I think it marriage reinforces patriarchy because women are divided from each other and their energies/time/emotion goes into supporting men instead of each other. You only have to look at the happiness statistics!

1. Married men (happiest)
2. Single women (second happiest)
3. Married women (not quite so happy)
4. Single men (very fragile, depressed and much more likely to be in jail than married men)

So without a doubt, marriage supports men... and it only supports women insofar as patriarchy has made single women's life difficult, especially if they're mothers.. then they get doubly punished

Sorry for jumping in, I just accidently came across this thread. Just want to say: . Are some men really like this? Actually parading and making a point of showing this jealousy toward their own babies?

Maybe I am a bit naive in thinking that people had evolved just that a little bit.

When my DP had our first, yes it was difficult. Our relationship changed, our own needs had to be put down the list a bit, and sleep was not as abundent as we were accustomed.

But jealous of their own children? The closest I felt to this "jealousy" was feeling a little left out for a day or two, but found this was easily solved by joining in more. Taking over more baby care actually made me more involved.

Why doesn't this happen? Why are these people still behaving like this? Is this part of the reason for the current divorce rate now that you don't have to put up with sort of crap? I feel ashamed for my race at this behaviour.

well... I'm a tool of the patriarchy as well ORm... judging by my previous comment about marriage being the pillar that props the whole thing up... and me being married!!!

But it's not deliberate on anyone's part, I don't think (well you do get some extreme versions like those nuns at the Magdalene laundries... they did their handmaiden work very well indeed)... but even in those cases it's often women taking out their oppression on other, weaker girls because they can't take it out on the oppressors!

Your granny certainly wouldn't recognise the patriarchy - it was just the status quo, accepted and unquestioned.

What is wrong about all this is the fact that you can make sweeping statements about my granny, without knowing her- or a thing about her!

I wonder why some women want a man, other than as a sperm donor, and the DCs will be poorer for it- with just a mother.

Mothers being absorbed by their DCs is a good thing, but women being totally absorbed to the exclusion of all else ,in a possessive way, is not-especially for the DC (or not past babyhood anyway).

Absorbed is fine as a baby, at the stage the baby doesn't know it is a separate being, but it gradually becomes a millstone if the mother doesn't ease off, give benign neglect, let the DC experience the wider community, be given responsibility and independence, be set free from being responsible for mother's emotional state. They don't come in the world 'to love me'-they come in with a right to be loved'.

Parents need to move on. What is good parenting is very different- from a 2 month old, a 5 yr old, a 10 yr old, a 15yr old, a 22 yr old etc. The mother will be the most important at 2 months, by 5 yrs the father may be far more tuned in.

There shouldn't be a heirarchy, there should be a set of people living together in a loving unit with no talk of my.

I hadn't realised that I need to add feminist to my list of threads to keep off. Parenthood isn't a competition-it is a joint, equal enterprise.

Rewarding work and friends are what you invest in, not a man

I think you have got a bit of a hang up on the "devoted" word, exotic. Yes it's got Virgin Mary and 1950s overtones so it's cringemaking, but it's just a word.

And I agree with everyone else, if you are going to claim that men and women are equally devoted to putting their children's needs first, then you need to provide the evidence. There is too much good evidence out there that says they simply don't. Women tie themselves up in knots about whether they are harming their kids by not breastfeeding, co-sleeping, BLW, blah di blah - men just don't, it astonishes them (even fathers) to find that women get angry with each other on websites about these issues. They just can't see what the big deal is about. Becuase the big deal is about our children, which they just don't see as being quite so important. What does it matter if he's breast or formula fed? Who cares if he cries for half an hour? He's just 2, why do his little concerns need to bother the adults?

I think you've to some degree bought into patriarchal myths that say that women being absorbed in their children while they are children is a Bad Thing. Which is why you keep on implying that those absorbed (ie Normal) mothers, are destined to turn into Ivy Tilsley-type MILs from hell.

Thanks for no one pointing out that where I said "male in all bar 8% of cases" should have actually read "female in all bar 8% of cases"

THe biggest shocker for me was realizing how much power men have compared to women, and how ignorant women are of this disparity.. Don't worry, I'm not calling you ignorant!! I mean we're kept ignorant of it, all of us women.... except sometimes you get a glimpse of it...
Last year I travelled through China the very weekend they were holding the EXPO... it was men, all men. men from England, Germany, America, China everywhere.. all men... there was the odd female secretary, translator or waitress but that was it. Men were making huge decisions about development, business and international trade. Women were nowhere to be seen

hmmm.. I'm afraid I disagree there. WOmen aren't the patriarchy... although a lot of them do what they have to in order to survive, and if that means becoming a handmaiden then they do so because it serves men's needs. Men have always allowed a few male-identified token women into certain professions in order to uphold the status quo... it is hardly women's fault if they decide to play by men's rules if it means they can be economically independant, for example

Men are pulling the strings... men have powers- political and economic powers-- that women don't even know about

exotic
our sons will benefit from universal male privilege and our daughters will be destroyed by it (unless they're lucky or unless the revolution happens in our generation!).. there is not a man alive who doesn't benefit from male privilege.