Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

honestly I really don't know what you mean by respecting someone's views, I think you mean not challenging someone else's views.

But that isn't what debate is about - it's all about challenging people's ideas and pulling them apart to see what's left that's useful and what can be ditched.

What do you mean, respect someone else's view?

That's absurd, of course I don't respect a view I believe to be wrong. I respect your right to hold that view, and to post that view, and I presume you respect my right to argue with it.

I think you're uncomfortable with being argued with because it's not that normal in our culture. Everyone always shies away from getting down to the real nitty gritty of an argument unless they're in academia or somehting, but that's unhealthy and the reason mumsnet is addictive, is because people aren't afraid to keep stripping away at the arguments to examine whether they hold up or not.

OK why are not both parents breaking the cycle? Yes, that's a great idea. It will work fabulously for the children of parents in a healthy relationship. Not so good for those who aren't though.

Your marriage is great, good I'm pleased for you. But you can't say just because you had a crap teacher we shouldn't allow teachers to talk about relationships. Your personal experience of the world is not representative of everyone's (I actually think, given the stats about relationship breakdown and abuse, that happy relationships are in the minority - albeit a hopefully large one). I am a white female but I can accept that my experience of the world is completely alien to half the population simply because of my gender, let alone my race or socio-economic background or personal experiences. I like to look at research to try to make up for what I'm lacking in personal experience.

Also, discuss it with them - that is usually what happens in these PHSE or whaterver they are calling it now, lessons.

Why are you assuming that just because one bad teacher once pissed you off, all teachers doing that particular subject will be shit at it? I once had a crap maths teacher, but I don't think all maths teachers are shit. Are you really saying that ethical and social issues shouldn't be argued in schools? They've always been tackled, whether that be under the guise of Literary and Debating societies, Religious Education, Citizenship lessons, whatever. They've been an integral part of education for a long time now, it's not new.

Debate is respecting other views even if not your own. I am Mrs-this doesn't seem open to personal choice-I am just wrong!

Your arguments are being analysed and argued with.

It will make them stronger if they stand up and if they don't, you'll change your mind.

No one is telling you you can't argue. But what do you want us to do, just be like Netmums and say "oh well, it would all be boring if we all thought the same, never mind hun, let's agree to disagree shall we?" We're all here to thrash out our own ideas and hone our arguments and learn and of course we're going to dissect each other's posts, that's what debate is.

Of course women can do it on their own-they nurture their DSs and they choose the men as partners.

Discuss it with them. Not tell them what they should think. I thought I was a feminist until I read threads on here which most definitely tell me I am wrong unless I agree with the majority. If I differ my words will be dissected and taken apart bit by bit and I will be wrong.

History is all about imposing your view of the world on someone else, actually, but be that as it may...

Exotic you've already said that your DH is one of the good ones. I've no doubt of that. But tht doesn't make it any less true, that there are loads of men out there who are shit. And they need educating, we cannot simply call on women to resist every single cultural message and psychological and emotional expectations they have developed, to find the right man.

Women can't do this on their own. If we could, we'd have done so, thousands of years ago.

History, English and Maths is teaching a subject-not trying to impose your view of the world on another.

You had one bad experience with one inexperienced teacher and you think that means we should give up educating our chidlren properly?

Seriously?

We shouldn't even try to get them thinking about how relationships might/ could/ should work?

OK why are not both parents breaking the cycle? I mentioned mothers since people seem to know lots of these abusive controlling men-who I assume wouldn't want to.
I think I live in a different world-my friends and family live in equal relationships-if they didn't they divorced years ago. I went out last night and came back to find that DH had washed all the tiled floors-this isn't odd-he does it more often than I do.

Well we might as well give up teaching history, english and maths as well then.

Some kids probably won't listen, or the message will be drowned out by contradictory messages they receive at home or from wider society. But if it helps just one young man stop being sexist or one young woman from taking up with an abuser, is it not worth it?

These things backfire in schools HerBex-DCs don't always receive the lesson they are meant to-they have a very different interpretation.
In my case I resist any attempt to 'educate me'-I don't like it. I prefer to choose my own role models and work it out for myself. I remember a very young PHSE teacher when I was a teenager-she was from London on a quest to 'liberate' us in the 'backwoods' and we deeply resented her telling us what we should think. It was a girl's grammar school and most people went on to be very successful-I remember that one girl eventually had a real go at her and told her what she thought-everyone was pleased. She wasn't treating us as equals-she was telling and not listening.

If a woman has a sexist partner, how can she break the cycle with her DS unless she leaves her partner?

If every woman in this country left her partner for being sexist I would bet my mortgage on the fact that the divorce rate would rocket!

Yes, like in romantic films where the man goes all out to get the woman's attention. In the film it seems ok because she likes him and she's supposed to be with him by the end of the film. In RL though it would be seriously creepy and verging on obsessive stalking behaviour. Twilight - classic example.

In songs, where many of the post popular forms of music routinely call women bitches and whores.

I mentioned adverts earlier. All the cleaning ones/baby ones/incontinence/diarrhoea ones all feature women, while those featuring men are all dark brooding and hey, aren't we great (summed up )

So we have a popular culture where it's ok for men to stalk women, call them a bitch or whore, expect that she will do all the cleaning and baby care. And then we wonder why women in RL don't leave when her partner starts controlling her, emotionally abusing her and not pulling his weight around the house or routinely goes out with his mates on the weekend leaving her with the kids.

Why aren't the fathers working on breaking the cycle?

Um, the fathers are a pretty big influence too.

I still think they wouldn't listen. Surely the mother should be a huge influence-why don't they break the cycle with their DSs? My brothers treat their wives as equal partners-I am confident my DSs would-it is all they have known.
I was brought up not to have to follow blindly. I have never been hit by anyone in my entire life-a man would hit me once-there would be no excuses or second chances-I would be gone.

Yes it really ought to be taught in schools.

Teenagers should be taught how to spot red flags.

I was listening to commercial radio today (the horror...) and so many songs on the playlist are basically sang from the POV of entitled men with Narcissistic Personality Disorders. Lunacy is normalised it's presented as romantic and sweet.

Exactly HerBex Why is it the woman's responsibility to make sure she avoids an abuser instead of the abuser's responsibility to stop being abusive? I'm all for personal responsibility but it seems to apply to women a lot more than men.

Exotic If I was an old woman living in an area targetted by the door-to-door con artists, people might give advice to me about not letting them in without ID etc but if the worst happened, all their censure would be directed at the con artists not at me.

Also, I'm not convinced by the women find nice men boring and must have had bad childhoods arguments. I didn't. My previous partner was a nice man and my childhood was happy. I just didn't know how to spot an abuser. They are good at what they do and society normalises a lot of their behaviour until it becomes quite extreme. My parents assumed that setting a good example would be enough. It's not a mistake I will be making with my own DC. I intend to teach them about different types of relationships and how manipulation works. I'd like to see it taught as part of PSHE in schools, where it will hopefully show young men that this sort of behaviour is unacceptable as well as teaching young women how to spot it and avoid it.

"I don't know how you get women to choose the right man"

More to the point, how d you get men to be the right man?

Lots of women are addicted to the adrenalin rush of abusers because that's what they've grown up with and because society excuses abuse of women by men. That bit at least, is fairly simple.

I don't know how you get women to choose the right man-many like the excitement of the bad or the mad etc-give them a nice considerate man and they label him boring. Many are just messed up by their families (mother too) and are looking for affection-often the 'wrong' type of man homes in on this. I don't think it is that simple.