Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

I'm glad it's not just me seeing that.

I'm surprised anyone displaying that attitude would post in the feminist section and not expect to have their views challenged/people not to fall in line with their take on things. It displays a certain arrogance, I think.

To go back to the OP, (Sorry ormirian) I think this is a really interesting idea.

Not sure how relevant my comments are here as I've been a single parent longer than a 'joint' parent (although I do still co parent with XP to an extent) - but it's good to look at men's role in bringing up children.

I don't believe the myth that men are necessarily less interested in their children. XP for example was besotted with DS from the moment he arrived. But then all the tedious grotwork of parenting (cooking, laundry, other housework) was largely left to me.

I think women are often conditioned to accept responsibility for this...and if a man shows any interest in his children or actually looks after them (and why shouldn't he be?) he is praised to the high heavens. You know, what a wonderful Dad, he works so hard etc..whereas women are doing this all the time and not getting praised for it.

Plus it is more 'accepted' when a man walks out on his children. Not that people think its great or a good way to behave, but men aren't vilified for this in the way a woman who does this would be.

Yep, that's what I'm seeing.

Summary of exoticfruits posts on this thread "I don't know any abusive men therefore I don't think they exist. Not really, Oh, and in case abusive men exist (which I don't really believe) it's the woman's fault anyway for putting up with it"

Have I read right here?

This thread isn't about you.

Well I'm sorry but I wouldn't do it. Someone would only abuse me once and they wouldn't get second chance. Anything would be better than staying.
I will leave thread -it is outside my experience. He must have shown signs before DCs and why let him?

The empathy just oozes out of you doesn't it exoticfruits?

If it is that bad why on earth are you still with him? My only argument is sort out your own home before you tell other women how dreadful all men are when the majority are not.

Yes he can complain. Or act like you're going to be unfaithful. Or deprive you of money to go out. Or fake illness so you have to stay. Or go out before you get a chance to get ready. Or say you didn't give him notice even though you did, and start a fight. Or rape you or beat you up to teach you a lesson

You would stay around while he did any of the above?!! If I knew men like this I might agree-thankfully I don't.

Ha ha ha. "Sort him out". That a woman's job obviously! Yeah like that's going to work with an abusive man!

No-one in an abusive relationship "lets it happen" like some passive, mythical lapdog.

However I am getting the impression that you don't actually want to engage, or listen or answer any questions posed to you. You just want to tell us women how we should behave and it's our own fault if we are abused.

Nice.

Mothers could start! Why does he think a woman picks up things after him? Because his mother did! Get your DSs doing things for themselves from an early age.

If they don't pick a 'good man' they should start at home and sort him out! I don't see much point in moaning about the patriarchy if you are letting it happen. Change things at home. It is a very bad example to your DCs to let him have an unequal partnership-what you say has no meaning-it is what they see you do that counts. Announce you are going out for the day and leave him with the DCs. -if you give plenty of warning he can hardly complain. Give him lots of chance to bond with the DCs.

"How many women on here would have equality like this"...

Uhm, lots of us?
DH is the primary carer of my (11 month old) DS at the moment. Not that an anecdote = data.

You're suggesting that men don't do enough around the house and make their wives their skivvy because the mean old women won't let them get involved. As opposed to, say, the fact that they are used to being picked up after and served by women, because of the patriarchy.

Why is it always the woman's fault in your opinion? Do you believe the patriarchy - a system that elevates men and oppresses women, even exists? It strikes me that maybe you don't see the systematic and all-surrounding nature of the patriarchy, and that's why you think that your experience is universal and any woman as clever as you would just pick a good man and get on with it?

Sorry-I missed out that both the DHs stayed at home alone with the little ones.

I can't help thinking it is one sided.
People don't want heirarchy, they want both parents to equally put their DC first and they are absolutely astounded that men can be jealous of their own DCs.
I agree and DH and I do this. However I can't help thinking that in many cases, what they really mean is that mother has the close relationship and father has to be understanding and work around it.

I wonder how many women actually would like the father having the really close relationship?
When mine were 15mth and just 3 yrs I went off skiing with my older DS while DH took a week off work as holiday and looked after the two little ones. They all had a great time, it was great for DH to have so much quality time.

When I was having a very traumatic time my best friend came down to stay for a few days, travelling 300 miles and bringing her 4 yr old while her DH has time off work and looked after the 3 yr old and 1 yr old DDs.

How many women on here would have equality like this-how many would say they were indispensible and they couldn't leave their DCs with an equal parent?

There is a thread at the moment where a woman is asking about her 4 yr old having 2 nights at the seaside with her PIL. DD and grandparents love each other and get on well, she trusts the PIL and DD wants to go-but she has a problem. IMO it is a problem that she shouldn't project on to her DD, she should wave her off cheerfully.

It is all very well being equal-but no reason why the woman should be more equal than others. Partners and extended family can cope-if you let them.

exotic you are just repeating yourself as far as I can see, but I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that maybe we're not understanding you. So I've 'translated' your post to rephrase it as I am interpreting it and giving you my response.

EXOTIC'S POST PARAPHRASED WITH COMMENTS

1. The best way to avoid living in a sexist relationship is not to live with a man who is sexist, most men are not sexist and you are stupid if you can't recognise a sexist man.

1. Women should put their partners before their children because children grow up and leave.

1. You should model good behaviour for your children. It is the woman's responsibility to do this, not the man's.

1. It is unnatural to be happy all the time and people will be abused. This is normal and we should not try to do anything about it. It is up to people to learn for themselves.

Somehow I think you will counter this post with another that simply repeats everything you have said rather than bother to engage in the debate and answer our specific concerns about what you are posting. I am always open to changing my opinions. This board has seen me do complete turnarounds on a few topics, but thus far nothing I have heard from you has changed my mind because you are not backing up your opinions with evidence or answering people when they show the faults in your arguments.

We've been through all this.

Have you not taken any notice at all?

If you don't like it start by not having one in your family-that is what your DC will learn-not what you say.

Why have one?

Have you not noticed, this is a thread about the fact that objectively, for many families, there is one and the reasons for that.

It's not a thread that is arguing that there ought to be one.

I was going back to the OP and heirarchy-why have one?

"The best thing that you can do for and DC is have 2 loving parents who love each other and them-beats any amount of co sleeping etc."

Another unevidenced assertion

You're not really reading the posts are you?

I don't think that it has moved on all that far from OP. I still don't see why there is a heirarchy-just don't live with a man who thinks there is!
I don't see the need for women to be 'devoted' to their DCs, they should be letting go. Half the DCs are boys, maybe the problem is that the mother is 'devoted' to them at the expense of the father and they grow up thinking the father is worthless and fairly useful.
DCs do as you do and not as you say so if they see you doing all the housework and in charge of the the DCs as superior parent that is how they see life and it doesn't matter how much you are talking about the patriarchy- if you are the only one to clean the toilet, you won't leave DH free to do DDs hair to the best of his ability(and let her go out with the result), and you won't let the DCs stay with Granny while you go off for the night-that is the message they get.
The best thing that you can do for and DC is have 2 loving parents who love each other and them-beats any amount of co sleeping etc.
Life is a learning exercise-we all get hurt, have periods of sadness, learn to cope with anger etc. We are not supposed to be happy all the time-you wouldn't learn anything-how would you even know you are happy? Life throws things at you and you deal with them-it may make you stronger as a couple-it may break you up. You can't take short cuts-people have to do it themselves. Tell a 15yr old girl that the boy she thinks she is in love with will be controlling and abusive and all you will do is throw them together-there is nothing better than ill fated, romantic, misunderstood first love!

Back with my teacher of PHSE-not that it was called that in those days-we had two. One was Miss X -the Head, single, in her 50s and very intellectual. She listened and debated and she was a very clever woman, she would bring things in that we had never even contemplated and it really made you think. The other was MissY 22 yrs old and straight from university. She had the world sorted according to Miss Y and she was right! It was deeply resented.

Sorry Orm, that may be partly due to me going off on one again about abuse and the way single mothers are treated. I didn't mean to derail the thread, but my point is that until we can show zero tolerance to abuse and rubbish NRPs, how on earth are we going to address the dynamics within a family setting, which is much more 'hidden' and entrenched in social norms.