Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

"Do you not know that, statistically, the highest risk group for being attacked when out in the evening is young men?"

Yes of course I know that. THat's the point I'm arguing
Men are at risk of attack from other men (not women BTW)

WOmen, on the other hand, are more at risk of attack in their own homes.
(again by men, not women)

So women are safer on the streets, and men are safer in their own homes.

So it's silly to do what you implied I would do and tell your daughter that she shouldn't go out on the streets at night and she should stay at home ) because I know my daughter would be safer on the streets than at home with a man

Not in the post that I was replying to. I wasn't replying to anything ,except that one statement that I put in bold. I then agreed to her amendment (but not her way of dealing with it).

Sakura doesn't need me to defend her corner but as I read it that's what she was saying all along, that women are more at risk of violence in the home than out on the streets.

If you were born a man, you could have both! YOu could have freedom and a very unlikely chance of being murdered

I wrote my reply before Sakura amended her statement-so it is hardly fair to put it-she then changed it to in the home, which I agreed with.

"Anyway having heard that men are entirely free from any worry of attack or murder"

No-one has said this though. I don't get it?

We cross posted-I'm glad that you cleared that up- in the home-I agree with that-but a hell of a lot of women are perfectly safe at home.

I refuse to even read any more!
Do you not know that, statistically, the highest risk group for being attacked when out in the evening is young men?
I have looked it up. Men commit more crimes than women. Men are more likely to be victims of violent crime than women. Men and women aged 16-24 are most at risk-more than double men victims than women. Domestic violence is the only category where the risks to women are higher than men. Men however are victims of domestic violence. Risks to men of stranger violence are 4 times higher than to women.

I think that she is very unlikely to listen to you. If my mother was continually spouting such mistrust and fear I would leave home asp and ignore. (unless I knew it was due to horrific personal experience, in which case I would be more understanding, but still not know why it needed to apply to me.)

Anyway having heard that men are entirely free from any worry of attack or murder-I will hide the thread-the only way to keep my promise, made some time ago, of leaving it.

Nah, I don't hate men, but I think they have too much power.. and they are incapable of using it correctly. Men are not born to be leaders.. history has proven this.

Oh and as I have been pointing out, a woman is more likely to be murdered in her home ... by her husband so out on the streets is actually the safest place for a women.

Telling your daughter to stay home will not keep her safe. QUITE THE OPPOSITE if there is a man in her life.

I'm not making this up. HArd evidence shows that a woman is more likely to be murdered in her own home, by a man she is in a relationship with

I would rather have my freedom and run the risk of being murdered,than stay fearfully at home mistrusting all strangers.

If you were born a man, you could have both! YOu could have freedom and a very unlikely chance of being murdered.

Personally, I want my daughter to have freedom. Which is why I will be advising her to live alone or with her friends. Don't let a man trap you into the cage that is marriage, I will say (well maybe not in so many words)

If you read my second post you would see that I corrected my mistake.

I bring up my DCs to think the world is a wonderful place, not that they are only safe with mother, or by themselves. Life is there to be lived, take risks, meet lots of different people, learn by mistakes be joyful -not be put of trying in case of 'what might happen'.

I would rather have my freedom and run the risk of being murdered, than stay fearfully at home mistrusting all strangers.

I refuse to be a victim and let anyone alter my behaviour. For that reason I sent my DSs into the gents toilets when 6 yrs, left them at home alone at 8yrs, let them boil a kettle, go on French exchange holiday, go camping with friends at 15yrs, catch a train to London etc. I shall assume that they are a good judge of character and hopefully they won't live with one of the many women who murder their partners.
I am certainly not going to scare them to death with the world is a terrible place-only trust mother! You really do hate men Sakura. Have you not a single good word?

Oh and don't misquote me, it's the oldest trick in the book. I did NOT say "all men are aggressive "

I said my daughter is statistically more likely to be murdered if she lives with a man than if she lives alone. So am I. And you too.

That doesn't translate into "all men are aggressive" . It's a basic analysis of statistics. We are talking about men's aggregate behaviour here. Two women a week are murdered by their spouse in the U.K.

"Let us know whether your advice is successful-I very much doubt it."

What do you mean? You mean my daughter is pre-programmed to get married? If so, then why does the P (the patriarchy) pull out all the stops when it comes to convincing women that marriage is good for them? IF it was so natural, the male-run media wouldn'T have to promote it in every single commercial, programme, magazine drama and blah blah. They wouldn't have to wheel out the propaganda in all the malestream newspapers.

The fact that patriarchy tries so damn hard to convince little girls that marriage and searching for the one is a Good Thing, tells me that they secretly suspect women would choose to live without men, if they had the means.

And in fact in Japan this is exactly what is happening. Women are not marrying and the government is panicking because they're refusing to have children either, and have been for quite some time.

So I think a little push in the right direction would be all it would take for my daughter to see this institution for what it really is

OK -not all men-but enough to try and scare her DD into never committing to one, enough to have a loving relationship.

Let us know whether your advice is successful-I very much doubt it.

Men and women are people-some are good, some are bad-they are all individuals and you have to take them on an individual basis.

Some men don't do their fair share of housework etc or are jealous of their DCs, but you can't surmise that the majority of men are like that.
A lot of men like football-there are still a whole lot around who have no interest in football. I can't see the point in generalising.

exoticfruits I don't understand how criticising abusive men somehow becomes telling other women what to do and treating men as the enemy.

You are arguing against something which nobody has actually said.

I was trying to work out whether this was true, without re reading all my posts and then I find that I didn't make it up, Sakura thinks all men are aggressive and that her DD is in danger if she lives with a man. Not something I would tell my daughter, if I had one. All she needs to do is be friends first, get to know his family and friends. There is as much chance of my DSs being aggressive to women, as the River Thames freezing over in June.

exoticfruits, I said it bears repeating, so I'll repeat it. Women, and that includes you and I, are statistically more likely to be murdered by our husbands than a man on the street. That means single women, or women who live alone (like HerBex?) are statistically less likely to be murdered.

Exceptionism i.e the idea that my husband is different doesn't bear out in the statistics.. Yes your husband might be different, but you can hardly advise other women to get married or live with a man on that basis because if your husband is one of the good ones then there are more badduns out there for other women to meet.

I won't be advising my daughter to marry. I'll give her the DV and wife-murder statistics. I want her to know that she'll be in more danger from aggression if she lives with a man than if she lives alone. Women have got to show their daughter these things. Instead we have LIES in the media about men being women's protectors when nothing could be farther from the truth!

"Just like women are the gatekeepers of sex, they are also the deniers of eating-all-the-sweets, doing-donuts-in-the-car-in-tescos-carpark, staying-up-late etc etc"

OMG prince.. for all the equality I believe that might exist in my relationship I am still the denier of sweets and ice-cream and i'ts really not fair. At. all.

I think so PrinceH.

exoticfruits I don't understand how criticising abusive men somehow becomes telling other women what to do and treating men as the enemy.

You are arguing against something which nobody has actually said.

Exoticfruits either you are being extraordinarily disingenuos, or you are simply not remotely understanding what this thread is about.

And again: " My only argument is sort out your own home before you tell other women how dreadful all men are when the majority are not"

Where has anyone on this thread said all men are dreadful? Nowehre, once again, yo've set up an autn sally to knock down, because your arguemnts are weak.

You are the only person on this thead who has declared how other women should sort out their lives.

And this isn't about other people's relationshisp. Why are you ignoring all the posts which are from women in happy partnerships, who are aruging with you?

Do you really not know how to debate, or are you choosing not to?

Summary of exoticfruits posts on this thread "I don't know any abusive men therefore I don't think they exist. Not really, Oh, and in case abusive men exist (which I don't really believe) it's the woman's fault anyway for putting up with it"

Have I read right here?

No you haven't read it right. Abusive men exist (so do abusive women)-however most men are not abusive. If you have one it isn't fair to give all men those charactics. Most men have equal parterships with the woman they love, they bring up DCs together and they are not jealous. I think you get a bit of a skewed view if your relationship isn't like this.

Most abusive or controlling men must show signs before you have DCs. I agree that once you are sucked in it is more difficult to get out and once you have DCs to consider it is even more difficult. However I think that right near the beginning (unless they are cold and calculating) they must have shown signs. No one hits me, no one swears at me, no one stops me from seeing friends or questions what I am doing-they go straight away-there is no excuse and they won't improve.

I don't object to people treating men as if they are the enemy, if they are guilty but most men are not.

Why not discuss parenthood before you have DCs? If you haven't sit down now and talk about strategy. Why should you be the one to have to do the boring things? Make sure he does it too. Go out for the day alone and be the fun one. You can have lots of fun at home with them.

Instead of moaning about heirarchy in general, where it often doesn't exist start with your own situation. You can't tar all men with the same brush, as if there is only one sort.

Yes thats what I mean PrinceH - boring mum vs fun dad.

Yes PrinceH, agree completely. Men are often praised inordinately for doing what they should be doing anyway..parenting their children!

So often it gets divided into mum doing the grotwork/boring things and not being 'fun'..then Dad who is (maybe) more rested from not doing grotwork gets to swoop in and do fun things.

Not sure if I'm expressing myself very well here...!