Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

Personally I dont get why you still wouldnt be giving each other attention. You can still give the babies/children attention but its not a 24/7 job there is still time for each other. My husband did just as much for our daughter as a baby. He wont feel left out if he gets up with you for every night feed and you talk and hug. There is still time for sex and affection, just cause you are a parent, even when you are a new parent ime.

In our house we have kind of the opposite of this. DP dotes on DD. He has as much as said he loves her more than me. But I dont act like these bratty men.

Well this

"Each child is made up of genes from their parents, fifty - fifty from their mother and father. A child is therefore twice as related to herself as she is to her sibling."

for a start is nonsense as far as I can work out.

The more I learn about feminism the more I am having serious doubts about the nuclear family . It seems to me that feminist basics is "marriage/het partnerships is the bedrock of the patriarchy" just as the seventies feminists argued that it was...
If women stopped pairing off with men patriarchy would collapse. I really believe that.. then there would be no more bombing lebanon or anywhere else the macho governments decide to rattle a sabre

at Evolutionary Psychology as Scientific Theory... Those are the same guys who like to justify rape on evolutionary grounds...
forgetting that a woman who bears the child of a rapist is a) likely to spontaneously abort through stress b) quite unlikely to care for the child in the way she would if it was planned c) will possibly be unable to provide the child with the resources it needs to survivive and thrive..being as it wasn't planned.
IN other words, rape is an evolutionary dead end... but not according to evolutionary psychology "scientists". Apparently rape is an evolutionary phenomeon that men can't help.
In fact, if anyone is in any doubt about how men's minds work (and how bad it really is ) just look at Evolutionary Psychology. Men will tell you themselves. All women need to do is listen and believe what they're saying.

It's only a scientfic theory in the same sense as men are from Mars and women are from Venus is

Herbex - because a scientific theory involves a few numbers it must be 'someone with a maths fetish?' -

Omirion - sorry don't mean to derail your thread and won't post any more. I just thought it was tangentially relevant, particularly to Wholly's point and I think it is one of the most useful things I ever as a parent.

It seems to me that some men do not cope very well with not being the star of the show when the baby arrives. Grow the fuck up !

Yes agree meditrina.

It's not that absurd feelings of resentment, jealousy etc. should not be there: it's that they should be accepted, acknowledged as absurd, and worked through from the premise that though they are natural, they're not reasonable and must be overcome because the needs of the baby come first.

We don't expect older siblings not to be jealous of younger ones. But we don't validate those feelings, we acknowledge them and work towards overcoming them, living with them etc. The difference being, a jealous sibling is three, whereas a fully grown man of 30 paying a mortgage, functioning in the adult world, needs to grow the fuck up a bit quicker than a three year old.

I don't get the maths, but I do agree with the quoted part of whollyghost's post.

The job of a parent is to prepare your children to leave you. But there is an expectation (not always realised) that your spouse/partner will stick around beyond that. Ranking who comes "first" isn't really a helpful concept in that.

All members of the family unit require care and attention. Infants of course take up the most time as they cannot meet any of their demands themselves and it is an absolute requirement that they be well cared for. And I strongly agree that both parents (if present) need to be involved in this. But what precise division of tasks this might mean needs to be settled within the individual family (too many variations of circumstances to generalise usefully).

There is however no place for expressions of jealousy. Parents who feel this strike me as still being in need of growing up a bit. Yes, the family dynamic changes with every new baby. Yes, a parent might look back nostalgically for aspects of their previous life, and yes it can help if those feelings (which can arise from other changes - house, career etc) are acknowledged - but what is then done with that insight is what matters.

Sorry that just sounds like someone with a maths fetish has made up some crap

Whollyghost "I don't understand exactly what you mean by small children always coming first - they are part of a family unit, and what is best for the family may not always be best for them."

I agree.

I know people on this topic tend to think that evolutionary psychology is a load of old shit, but Robert Trivers' theory on sibling rivalary is incredibly useful in thinking about the parent-child relationship.

it helps to explain why your children always want more than you can give, and have a hair-trigger reflex for injustice but only when it affects them.

My DH has admitted to feeling jealous of DD but he is conscious it's unacceptable and worked on it and I think is now in a much better place.

I've never asked his opinion on BFing but he is always supportive of me continuing (DD is 13 months). He did have this annoying habit though when she was younger - whenever she got grumpy he used to bring her to me and announce she was hungry. I think a bit of him viewed me BFing as being something that enabled him to get out of placating a grumpy baby.

My DH wouldn't do this either. I just asked him and he said that men like this are very childish and wondered whether they were mummy's boys.

And regarding the breastfeeding - there are plenty of men out there who realise there are plenty of things they can do with the baby that don't involve feeding, like changing nappies, playing, giving cuddles, etc. And of course, it's perfectly possible to breastfeed your baby and then later on let your dh touch your breasts in a sexual way. (If you really want to - personally I wasn't interested in sex when I had a newborn, not with the epsiotomy and stitches and everything. I was sore for months.)

Agree with the OP.

My DH wouldn't dream of behaving like that. If he did feel left out or something then we'd talk about it.

There often seems to be a lack of communication between partners in these sort of thread, with one or both people refusing to have a grown-up conversation about what is on their minds. And then try and work together to come to some kind of conclusion. TBH I think it's pathetic when grown-ups won't talk to each other like grown-ups. (Being frank there )

Good thread subject OP.

I've mentioned this point before, but think it's worth mentioning again.

A friend of our family (from N. Ireland but living in Switzerland) had a baby a few years ago. In hospital, the Swiss midwife told her not to bother her DH during the night to get up with their newborn, as it was a woman's job.

According to this midwife, a woman is biologically programmed to wake during the night with the child, but a man isn't

I have also heard guff like that mentioned above about breasts being for men, not for little babies.

Barmy, really.

I'm confused about the breastfeeding bit.
As far as I can remember, your breasts remain attached to your chest when you breastfeed and stay there when baby is asleep, in a pram or in someone else's arms. I wasn't aware they were removed from the body and handed over to a baby for his or here exclusive use.

Besides, I'm sure it wasn't just my husband who absolutely adored my boobs when I was breastfeeding.

"Have I been suckered by the myth of the New Man? Do most men really feel as if their infant children are 'in the way' and taking up too much of their partner's time? How can you be jealous of the affection your partner shows to your child and the time and energy she gives them? And what happened to supporting your wife/gf in what is a hard time for her too? When she needs your support and love? When she doesn't need more demands?"

No. I can only testify to my own feelings but I've never felt jealous of my daughter (or, for that matter, of my wife for stronger connection she has to DD via breastfeeding and pregnancy). I certainly try to support my wife in every way I can, but you'd have to ask her whether I've been successful or not.

"I did find it interesting on that other thread that the OP was advised to give up breastfeeding her 3month old baby so she could devote more time to her DH. So she can liberate her breasts from her baby and give them to her DH I suppose. A lot of the advice was very 1950's."

Not just 1950s - also modern day France where many women are advised (by other women) to stop breastfeeding asap, often for this reason.

A friend and I had a similar conversation today about this. She is really struggling with her DP at the moment. They've been together for years, she is 10 years older and she was happy not to have kids as he didn't want any and then suddenly he woke up at 33 and said "Actually, I've changed my mind, let's have babies."

Her wonderful, considerate DP, who adores his son more than anything suddenly seems to think less of his DP because she is now a SAHM. He has started to leave things about the house - cups, clothing, etc and expects my friend to be a maid and pick up after him. She is refusing to.

What makes it stranger is that he wasn't doing this before she had the baby or even before she got pregnant and wasn't working but now the baby is here it's like he is a dog marking his territory.

TBH there was little I could say but I really, really felt for her.