Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

I dont think its rare to find a man who longs for children and loves almost every minute with their child for a minute. I know lots of broody and family men tbh.

arg, missed last line of post

It's something either parent can do, but you have to WORK on it, both in advance and day to day, to prevent yourself becoming the default carer. And I don't know if it can be done without your partner on side.

It probably helps that my H was raised by his dad, so he doesn't think "this isn't something I can do" - rather, he thinks "this is what a Dad does."

I DO think 'oh you're so much better at this than me, you do it" is an evil trick of the patriarchy. ANd women who buy into that and don't let their husbands near - well it's such a shame for all of them. One male friend confided to DH "I feel like I haven't had a baby so much as lost my wife" -and he wasn't jealous or making it up - this lady wouldn't leave the baby with her H even for an hour to go to the shops...

D'you know, I wonder if the whole 'mum's the expert, don't let dad mess it up' thing happens with more mat leave? Not that I"d say a word against mat. leave, I wish I'd had more - but the fact that it's MAT leave, not 'family' leave?

Because I live in the USA, I was back at work (part time, but still NOT THERE) when DS was 6 weeks old. And DH was, and still is, the one who drives him to the nursery. Even though he's EBF and I had to lug bottles, etc, to work, DH was in charge of everything to do with getting DS to nursery - that means making up his bottles, his food, now - putting spare clothes in the bag, making sure they have adequate nappies, wipes, suncream etc there. I'm very sad about how soon I had to go back to work, but I didn't have a year, or six months, to become the preferred/expert in things. Apart from BFing, there was nothing I did for DS that his dad couldn't do, too.

I was very deliberate about making some things DH's speciality. DH does the bath and has lots of fun there, and last story of the night and tucks DS into bed, because I BF so get lots of snuggly time with the baby, but DH wanted, and therefore created, a special moment too....

I am very aware that I have an outlier of a husband - a man who longed for children and loves (almost!) every moment with our baby - but the fact that he does all the things he does ( and is primary carer during the summer holidays, as he's a teacher) means that looking after a baby is something either parent can do.

I think it's one of the greatest tricks of the Patriarchy.

Make women feel responsible for childcare and housework and to make them feel guilty for not working and guilty for working.

The threads I've read about he doesn't do it right, or he's not allowed in the kitchen or he's not hanging out the washing he'd do it wrong fill me with disbelief.

I expect that you are right sunshine but you won't have equality until you delegate. You have to be able to leave DH to find their clothes and close your eyes to the fact he is taking them out in an odd combination! Or not mind that he isn't plaiting DD's hair neatly or that gives them a knife to chop onions for him etc etc.

I absolutely agree with Sunshine

About everythng, it seems.

exotic - do you think the culture of women having to be in control comes from centuries of men refusing to contribute to this arena? I see it as a form of women taking ownership of their responsiblities by saying if we have to do it we'll do it well and make it exclusively our domain.

Like you I see it as counterproductive to what we really want - which is men and women both taking an active role - but I think women pushing men out of the childcare arena is a response to having it all dumped on them for centuries, rather than a resistance to modern men becoming involved. It will take time to change.

'I am devoted to my DCs' makes me cringe, of course we all, are but you are not the only person who can care for them. It takes a village to raise a DC and it is good for them to make their own relationships at a very early age.

A lot of women have to be in control, as if they are the baby expert and have to show DH how it is done, instead of learning together. If he doesn't do it 'the right way' he is labelled 'incapable'. I agree that a lot of men may be jealous, but a lot of women make him a third DC by having to 'be in charge' and are quite pleased to be the only one to settle the baby etc-instead of going out and leaving him to sort it and learn for himself.

For a short time DCs come first-you are not free to do what you want to do, when you want to do it-but it goes very quickly. You and DP are the ones there for the long term.
As ilovedora says,the washing etc isn't important-remembering why you are together is central-or you are left with nothing once the DCs have gone.

totally agree with exotic saying being devoted to your kids isnt a virtue.

I think you can make time for each other. Is it really the end of the world if the washing up doesnt get done tonight, you dont go down the shops or the place isnt really tidy? I dont think it is so I would spend my evenings relaxing with my husband instead.

I also agree with the posts saying some women treat the husband like hes incapable. My husband was home for 4 months when our DD was born whilst I was at uni so he was used to looking after her from day 1 on his own. I dont understand mums who say oh he wouldt do it like me, he doesnt know how to change nappies/do feeds etc so I cant go out.

Completely agree with your last post Ormirian.

It does rely on the man looking after the relationship too! Communication is the key.

I think that the parnership is central, you are with someone because you love them and want to have DCs as an expression of that love. The DCs come through you, but they are people in their own right. You are very honoured to have them for a very short time. The parent's job is to produce a happy, caring, well rounded, fully functioning adult-to give them roots and give them wings. Parenting successfully means letting go gradually. When they have their wings and have flown you are left with the two central people for the next 30/40 yrs. You need to still like, love,care for and know the partner and leave your DCs to make their own way and mistakes in life, being there as a support, but not telling them how they should live their life.

It means that in the years of early childhood you need to consider everyone in the family. Being 'devoted' to the DCs isn't a virtue-they need to stay with granny, have babysitters etc.and know that parents are people in their own right-it is a huge burden to have a parent living through you.

It does mean compromise-I am always surprised that when couple's disagree on things like co sleeping the advice often comes up -'tough if he doesn't like it-just tell him'. From some posts you get the impression that the mother and DCs are a unit and the father is a bit of an inconvenience or the junior parent in that mother is the boss and never goes off for the day and leaves him to it-or not without a huge list of instructions (as if he is a baby sitter and not an equal parent).

I don't like the term consensual living (it is one of those things that people have been doing for decades and suddenly someone writes a book about it-like unconditional parenting etc) -but I think that is what everyone should be aiming for -finding mutually agreed solutions and the parents being important too.

On the whole, as long as parents are doing things in the DCs interests, happy parents will make happy DCs.

Yy to affection but the point is if it's mutual and welcome. I couldn't face sex for a few months after birth as I was touched out. DH was obviously fine with it but I bet lots of men aren't.

How far do you take it though re. Putting children first? I imagine DD would most like co-sleeping and being able to feed Every time she stirs all night. I would rather get a full nights sleep , not worry about squashing DD, and for her to go say 6 hours without feeding.

I think you do need to make an effort to maintain a good relationship when you have small children, surely that is exactly when effort is required, when it's not easy? Obviously it's a two-way thing though - I'm thinking both sharing the crap stuff, showing appreciation of each other and being tolerant, not 'wife makes herself constantly available for sex'.

And yes there were lots of "unspoken" rules in the communue I lived in....

I think one of the reasons MRA's hate this site so much, is because women are talking to each other and coming up with unhthinkable (to the patriarchy) solutions on how to organise the way men and women live with each other.

I find that living with my children and having a lover every now and again, works extremely well for me.

Thanks for your last post Ormirian Yes I agree with you.. I like men, I do... believe it or not.. I just don'T like patriarchy, which is when men group together to hog resources and power and use women's labour and energies to reach their goals (women's taxes paying for men's wars or banker's bonuses etc)

What I hate about patriarchy is 1) systematic violence against women and children, porn etc 2) war 3) environmental destruction. Those three things are woven into the social fabric because we live in a patriarchy.

If not living with a man in a het relationship means these three things won't exist, (or will exist to a lesser extent) then that's a price I'm willing to pay..

cba with a commune though.. I'm too anti-social. And didn'T HerBex used to live in a commune? She said there were loads of rules!! I'd live on my own with my kids and perhaps a friend or two.

Heh. I think we have a bit of affection - though "god I'm tired" and "have you fed the dog" does happen to be part of our evening (eg, after the baby's asleep) repetoire, where once there would be snuggling, videogaming, and even - gasp! - hotttt sexxx.

But - we enjoy each other's company, and we get each other's sense of humour. So we laugh about stuff, even about how tired we are, and that's a kind of affection. We got a new mattress delivered recently and we giggled about how we were so excited about 'testing it out' and yes, that meant sleeping - and oh how we've changed - but, yeah - we get time for affection. And we make time for sex. I've noticed my libido has dropped (poss. TMI, sorry) since the birth and I wonder if it's breastfeeding. I hope it is, as I miss it - but still, we have plenty of sex. I just have to recalibrate my brain to 'oh, sex, yes, that's always rather fabulous' from the zillion miles away that it has been, like "oh I'm tired, we need to pick up toys, christ where is my XXX I just saw it, have you walked the dog this afternoon or shall I?" - I don't quite just leap into sex like I used to when I had less on my plate. But it's still possible, and still totally worth the focus