Mothers, fathers, children and the family heirarchy

Is Sakura a wind up ?

I've seldom read such inane pathetic bilge

I keep coming back to this thread to goggle in disbelief. exotic you seriously seem to believe that everything is down to an individual choice, and if everyone was as clever as you, then no one would be in a shitty marriage.

As opposed to even noticing that, as PH pointed out, there are lots of men who are doing ALL the things you say they should do in the honeymoon period - cleaning up, sharing jobs, having the same kind of standards - and THEN treat their partners like shit once babies come along.

It's not that the women 'should have known better' - how could then when THE MEN CHANGE ? I know you're clever and brilliant but really, are you able to see into the future ? cos that would be handy.

Further more it's not the women's fault that the men in their lives start to treat them like shit. It's the MEN's fault. The clue is in the grammar.

ARGH why am I even here? It's like talking to a brick wall. That's why no one is posting, btw, exotic - it's because you're not listening or engaging, so there's not actually a discussion happening. People make suggestions or air their thoughts which could potentially develop the discussion, and you say "no, no, if women were just less silly and more sensible like me this problem wouldn't exist, it's all women's fault because I said so."

How can you interact with an attitude like that? The "lalalalaa I can't hear you, no sexism here" school of thought is pretty much a debate killer.

You are OK HerBex I am signing over and out. I find it an interesting subject-I'm surprised that it hasn't attracted more posters. Bye.

"You are assuming that all women have high standards."

LOL

No, no I'm not

You're doing it again

If we lived our life backwards it would be so much simpler!
I can't say that many women are much interested in the thread-if you bear in mind that this has taken 12 days to get just over 300 posts-mainly kept alive by me upsetting people-and a thread about a friend's DH telling off a 6 yr old got over 700 in 3 days!

You will be pleased to know that I won't be able to get on line for a few days (sighs of relief all round ) -by which time it will have fizzled out with lack of fuel to the fire .

I still think start with DCs-at least it gets to the next generation-if you have a lost cause in your DH. People don't change and can't be forced to change.

So I was right then.

sorry grateful

They would be the sensible ones and the DCs would have a good start in life. You have to admit -rightly or wrongly-that people enter into relationships that on hindsight they wouldn't. I nearly did it-3 days and agreed to marry someone!! Luckily he wasn't free and by the time he was, the novely had worn off. He was lovely -but not-I imagine to live with. I was saved and am very greatful!

Thing is exotic, if were all as clever as you with such superior judgment, I think possibly only 20% of the country would be in relationships and having children. Though I suspect you might consider that the 'right' 20%.

Anyone would think you had to marry a man, live with a man or even have a man friend! You do have choice.
It makes sense to get to know him for a longish period, after the first flush of romance has worn off and he is no longer on 'best behaviour'. See him with his family, how does he react to DCs, does he help his mother if he goes around there? Does he have time for an aging grandparent? What has he told you about his childhood? Does he know how to even use a hoover?
If he is a charming party animal who can't even boil himself an egg let alone cook a lasagne-at least you know what you are getting!

If this is all too sensible or prosaic for you ,then you can't be too surprised is what you see isn't what you get and you can't mould him into the sort of father you want for your DC.

It was the housework. You are assuming that all women have high standards. There seem to be two rules. If a man criticises a woman, people are quick to say 'tell him to do it then' but if a woman criticises a man he is 'wriggling out' of his fair share by doing it badly.

All you need to do is make sure before you live with someone that you have similar standards. If DH wanted people to take their shoes off when they visit I would be seriously upset. Someone who wants them off would be upset if he didn't take them off.

I always remember a woman saying when asked about housework 'it isn't my priority at the moment' (I have since used it)-it wasn't her DHs either and they were perfectly happy. They would both have been miserable with someone who did make it a priority and wanted to force the other to make it a priority.
I have a lovely friend, but I would hate to live with her-she tidies the DCs playroom every night, or gets her DH to do it. He gets on and does it, but would he be so dreadful to say 'I think it an utter waste of time-it will be back in a state tomorrow?' Is he wriggling out or just being sensible? It depends on your way of looking at it. (a complete and utter waste of time from my point of view-especially when she even colour co ordinates the toys!)

You just need communication.

They may look weak arguments to you-but not to everyone

Of course it's stereotyping Exotic.

It's what men say women are doing to shut women up.

That is why it matters if men use the term.

That's the point I was making.

I'm sorry you can't work out why you're attributing things to people that they haven't said. I can't be bothered to go back through the thread and find the numerous examples for you, if you're genuinely interested, you'll do that yourself. I'll content myself with your last example, where you said:

"The point I am trying to discuss is why you feel that every family has to be the same?"

Now please find me the post where I said or implied that every family has to be the same. You won't be able to, because I never said or implied any such thing anywhere, but you have attributed that sentiment to me for reasons best known to yourself. You have been doing this throughout the thread Exoticfruits, if you're interested you might want to go back and read the thread again and pick out the bits where I and other posters have accused you of doing that and where you have chosen to ignore those accusations instead of refuting them or engaging with the argument. Because you've been doing that, you have made your arguments look very weak.

I haven't read it but if he was doing his bit he would be too tired aswell!

I said it doesn't matter because it is such stereotyping that 'women nag'. Why would you have to nag if you have communicated? You are only going to nag if you are going over and over something that isn't happening-with no hope of it happening. Nagging is like whining in DCs-deeply irritating and gets you nowhere.

I agree we need change, but change never works if it is imposed from above. Who is this 'they' who are going to make change?
It has to happen at grassroot level with individual families. Ideally, people should have an equal partner and the DC just copy.
If you have a partner who is still dropping jeans and towels on the floor for the 'magic tidy up fairy' to move ,after 10yrs, 2DCs and any amount of nagging I think that you can safely say that he isn't going to change! It is a bit pointless to say why shouldn't the man teach the DCs if he isn't! You might as well just sort out your DCs and make sure they pick up clothes and towels. (while deciding if you put up with DH).

Anyone would think you had to have a man-you do have choice. If it is important to you, use your head first. When I met DH2 and fell in love, we both had worries. I was worried that he hadn't seen DS at his worst and he was worried that he could actually live with another person having been on his own for so long. We went on holiday for 2 weeks-well away-abroad and self catering. He did see DS at his meltdown, impossible tantrum, and in the pouring rain in the middle of countryside you certainly get to know each other! If he hadn't loved me-loved my DS -I wouldn't have continued. If I was heartbroken I was the adult and could deal with it- DS came first.
He knew exactly how laidback I was and that I am not a perfectionist-I would have been more than a bit miffed if we had got married and he had wanted me to change my housework standards. If he didn't like them he could have got out first!

You do need to communicate.
I can't work out what I am saying that attributes things to others that they haven't said.

Herbex - exotic is even attributing arguments to herself that she isn't arguing: "I would say that both parents are raising DCs to not do things for themselves." That's not what she is saying at all!

"The point I am trying to discuss is why you feel that every family has to be the same?"

Didja see what I did there, Stoptheclocks?

The reason I did that, is because I don't feel that every family has to be the same and I never said that Exotic, so why are you asking me to justify feelings I don't have and never said I ahve?

LOL. This is why I can't take you seriously. I haven't bothered to keep a tally of how many times you've done this, but seriously, can you not argue something without attributing arguments to other posters, that they haven't made? Why are you still doing this, when it's been pointed out again and again? Can you really not help it?

I think it does matter what people call things, language is incredibly important, I can't be bothered to argue the case in detail atm because I think it's a whole other thread in itself. But if you use the term nagging about someone asking you to do something that's important to them, then you are saying that that thing doesn't matter and isn't something you should be bothered with. Calling something nagging, is a declaration that you are not prepared to communicate with the person who is trying to communicate with you.

They can call it what they like! Does it matter?!

The point I am trying to discuss is why you feel that every family has to be the same? DCs do as you do. If you are living with a man who isn't doing as you think he should, you had a free choice in the first place not to live with him! I have a family without heirarchy-if you have one the same why does the rest matter? Let them sort it out for themselves.

But when women "communicate" about stuff they want that men don't want to be bothered with, men call it "nagging".

She doesn't iron either-ever.Neither do her DH or DCs.

Why do you care? Is this particularly interesting to you? do you think it will shed light on this discussion? As it happens, my xp did more of the housework than I did, to around the same (low ) standard? What point are you trying to discuss?