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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Amateur porn - is it wrong from a feminist perspective?

88 replies

Bennifer · 08/06/2011 13:46

Just a general question. There's obviously porn that is "professional" in a sense, and it relies on the exploitation of women. What about amateur porn that's done between consenting couples who put stuff on the internet (or couples we assume are consenting)

PS, I don't want to include amateur looking porn that is professional in this category

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Bennifer · 08/06/2011 18:05

Yes, Dittany, I find that I'm generally in favour of consent when it comes to sex. I've generally found it makes things a whole lot better.

I'm not trying to find categories of porn that are ok, I'm trying to get to the bottom of what it is that makes porn wrong, and to build it up bit by bit. I agree with Reality that it's not about the sex per se that I have a problem with. You and I differ on this.

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dittany · 08/06/2011 18:02

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dittany · 08/06/2011 17:58

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Bennifer · 08/06/2011 17:52

Realty, that's my perspective. Porn is wrong, because in practice, many/most people in it are being abused and exploited in some sense, rather than the theoretical side

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Bennifer · 08/06/2011 17:51

Dittany,

This isn't about me! Why does it matter? Dittany, you're still going further. You have a very certain concept of pornography that is by definition degrading. What term would you apply then to a film of a consensual couple having sex. Is that not pornography? Or would you call it eroticism? What would you call it?

Reality

Thanks for your answer. You're sort of saying that in theory, amateur porn is ok from a feminist perspective, but in practice it is.

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Reality · 08/06/2011 17:50

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dittany · 08/06/2011 17:46

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Reality · 08/06/2011 17:45

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Reality · 08/06/2011 17:44

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Bennifer · 08/06/2011 17:42

Dittany,

Sorry, the thread title isn't "has Bennifer seen some porn?". That's not what this thread is about

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Bennifer · 08/06/2011 17:41

If you decide to have sex with your DP/DH in the supermarket, people don't have a choice as to whether they see you. If however you post it on the internet on a site, the people watching have a choice. Unless porn is being broadcast in Sainsbury's, your analogy is flawed.

Several times you've tried to paint me as pro-porn and it won't stick. Most porn on the internet relies on some form of exploitation where women are abused. However, and this is the point I'm making, is whether watching sex is wrong. I don't think it is, that doesn't make me pro-porn.

It sounds like you don't like the use of term puritanical, but if your objection is to watching sex at all, that does sound quite puritanical.

Anyway, it's clear where your objection to porn comes from. I wonder if other people think that it's wrong to watch sex at all.

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dittany · 08/06/2011 17:34

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dittany · 08/06/2011 17:33

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Bennifer · 08/06/2011 17:29

Dittany, this isn't disingenuous. I've seen some porn, but that's not what this thread is about. I asked a perfectly valid question. Is it ok to watch people having consensual sex, if those people have consented to you watching it?

You don't seem to think it's ok, and therefore are opposed to any form of eroticism, tout court.

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Bennifer · 08/06/2011 17:27

You almost admit it's a bad analogy because as you say, people don't just start shagging (or masturbating) in the city centre.

What you're saying is that you're opposed to viewing of any sex that goes beyond the privacy of the two (or three or four) people involved, even if they consent to other people watching. That does sound quite puritanical I'm afraid.

I have to add, when did using "our culture" as a defence for anything work? I thought "our culture" was patriarchical.

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dittany · 08/06/2011 17:25

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dittany · 08/06/2011 17:20

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Bennifer · 08/06/2011 17:15

The answers would be the same, I wouldn't be super happy but I wouldn't be horrified. The truth is I wouldn't know about it as I don't watch porn.

Men in the street is entirely different though, that's a poor analogy.

If you're saying that fundamentally, you don't like the idea of people looking at naked bodies and people having sex, that's quite an interesting stance, although it does seem a little puritanical

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dittany · 08/06/2011 17:10

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dittany · 08/06/2011 17:06

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Bennifer · 08/06/2011 17:03

Funnily enough I am going down the street this weekend with my genitals on show (I'm involved in a naked protest!).

I wouldn't be super-happy, but I wouldn't be horrified if my daughter put a consensual sex video between her and her boyfriend on the internet.

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dittany · 08/06/2011 17:02

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dittany · 08/06/2011 17:01

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MillyR · 08/06/2011 16:58

I can't think of any good analogy for pornography.

When we are talking about pornography we are talking about sex. Issues exist about negative aspects of sex that are different to those of footballers or women working in the pharmaceutical industry. It would be nice if these issues did not exist around sex, but they do.

Women and children are not trafficked all around the world for the purpose of being made to play football. Women are not abducted, made to play football and then murdered. Being forced to play football is not a common reason for launching a police investigation. Social services and paediatricians do not spend a great deal of time looking for signs that a child has been forced to play football. You will not be accused of putting yourself at risk of crime or encouraging others to commit a crime simply because you put on a football strip. People take children to football matches all the time. In short, football exists within a completely different cultural context to pornography.

With regard to the drug analogy, it is true that there are many women (and children and men) whose labour is exploited in the production of many goods that we use. We have some options to choose products that do not involve the exploitation of women, but we cannot be sure about every single thing we buy. But we do have to eat, wear clothes and sometimes take drugs that stop us becoming seriously ill.

The other difference is that the wellbeing I receive from taking medication is because of the drug, and not directly because of the exploitation of another woman. The same is true for clothes; I enjoy being warm, not the fact a woman was exploited. If the clothes came with a video of a woman being exploited, I would have difficulty appreciating the benefits of the garment. The direct benefit from pornography is sexual enjoyment of the exploitation of another human being. That is going to have very different psychological impacts on the viewer and their perspective on people in general than the impact that using (possibly unethically produced) ventolin has on me.

Actually, I feel it is a bit absurd that I should have to justify drug use and explain why it is not the same as somebody masturbating to pornography.

Bennifer · 08/06/2011 16:56

Dittany,

You're going on a step here from the basic premise. When you ask do I think it's ok to be treated like that, yes I do think it's ok for women to have sex. Why wouldn't I think it's ok for women to have sex. I'm not talking about abusive porn, I'm starting with the question "is it wrong to watch people have consensual sex?", not "is it ok to watch people being abused?"

So, yes, I'm happy for my Dad to have sex, I'm happy for my daughters to have sex, sex is ok with me. Please also note, I'm not accusing you of being anti-sex.

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