Is this a feminist issue?

Yes herbex but the fact that he would not be Invasive or approach a strange woman should be enough to ensure a decent man, he shouldnt have to be worred that that him just being there is a problem. Thats the point I'm making.

Yes I don't think it's quite as sad to know that other people fear you and therefore you need to be careful not to scare them, as it is to feel life threatening terror every now and again.

I would rather think that people were scared of me, than be scared of everyone.

That's a natural way to feel, I think.

So why so concerned about the fine line then HC? Are you going to make your son aware of why he might be a source of fear to women in certain situations and that it's nothing personal and it would be kind and decent of him to allay their fears by being aware of them and acting accordingly?

Quite a few men have told me they avoid walking anywhere near a lone woman at night, in case his presence frightens her. I think that's just as sad as the fact that we feel overly cautious. Not to mention the fact that, if anything bad were to happen, that's the man you'd want walking nearby!

I didnt say I was going to

But you don't have to do that HC. Just because you know some loons who did, doesn't mean you have to.

It would be unlikely because most parents don't have a vested interest in guilt-tripping their children.

again you'd be surprised like you said your mother did it, its not that uncommon for parents to bascially mess up their kids regarding their own issues conciously or not. My mother can be like that , brought me up to have a very low opinion of men I dread to think If I had been a lad how it could have affected me.

It would be unlikely because most parents don't have a vested interest in guilt-tripping their children.

You can the difference between insight and ranting/ guilt inducing tirade.

Why would it be unlikely?

How do you know they feel guilty? Have you asked them?

I think that sounds very unlikely. Parents don't try and make their children feel guilty, unless they're fanatical catholics like my mother, or loons.

You'd be surprised Herbex how many people do that

I've grown up in an enviroment where alot of the adults work in SS BT and and seen little boys being brought up basically to feel guilty, by professionals
so its not as rare as people would like to think.

I had a bit of a moment like this last night in the pub - lone woman with about 10 men. I just thought, if anything did happen to me, I put myself in that situation IYKWIM.

I know nothing would, most of them are trusted friends. But, you know... there is always doubt. I hate it.

I'm going to have to read this thread properly later (by which time it'll probably be about 17 pages!)

You weren't being irrational or wussy, allhail, because the risk is real - how statistically real depends on your environment at the time, of course - and, should he turn out to be an aggressor, you'd likely be at a physical disadvantage. But the fact you necessarily felt more nervous than a man would is a feminist issue!

Having said that - I used to write guide books in which there was a mandatory safety section. After many arguments with my male editor over this section, we eventually realised that I was writing from a female perspective. For example: I took it for granted that one would think twice before staggering, alone and drunk, down a dark alley in a large city. This sort of thing needed explaining in far greater detail (how, why, where, when, what to do) as men do not normally feel this sense of background caution.

With that in mind, it seemed men suffered from an inflated sense of safety, which was in fact unsafe. That's just as irrational as feeling extremely nervous.

I do walk around wherever I like - not from stupidity, but out of principle - and, in consequence, was attacked a fair few times on my travels. Men in that country, however, were far more likely to be seriously injured in attacks. I suspect this has something to do with their sense of affrontery: they got angry with attackers, where women are more prone to negotiate - and are mentally better prepared for the eventuality.

I'm not saying it's in any way okay that other people, mostly men, attack strangers, or that I feel there are definite 'correct' rules. But caution is wise, and absence of caution can be more dangerous than over-caution.

I don't think it's a particularly fine line tbh. I don't really know what you mean by that.

If you make it clear that analysing something on a group basis is different from blaming every individual within that group, you're not going to confuse anyone. You're just helping them learn to think. (Something our education system conspicuously seems to have failed to do in the case of a large number of people...) Obviously you have to do it in an age-appropriate way, but the line between making a child feel guilty for being white/ heterosexual/ male/ able-bodied/ young/ middle class/ western etc. and simply giving them some empathy and insight, isn't at all fine unless you're a complete loon. You've obviously known some loons in your time.

I was talking with you, not someone else. I was only targetting you in as much as I was replying to you, after all you were asking me what I meant by my response further up thread.

Its a fine line to tread though I've seen it done wrong too many times and has probably jaded my view.

Teaching him that women will be scared of him sometimes because of the context of their lives HC, isn't dumping all the sins of the world on him.

It's just giving him the insight he needs to be a decent man.

I don't mean approaching I mean just being there and people crossing the road etc

Disgusting is also a bit dramatic hmm.

what you said was low and disgusting and blatantly targeting me when another person had made this point.

Herbex what you say is right, but its seems all a bit damned if you do damned if you don't. I' dont want to be that parent that puts all the sins of other men on his shoulders IYSWIM i've seen the products of that all to often.

Absolutely TT. I suspect another man might have decked him actually.

As HerBeX said, what a young man ought to grow up knowing is that women are going to be cautious about being approached by men in public places, and there's good reason for that. Public but lonely places, like roadsides, most of all (not so much a crowded shopping centre, but allhailtheaubergine's brother was right, and anyway, he knew his sister was able to help). A man who has genuine good intentions will know this and keep his distance, and not be offended if a woman does the same.

I've got to wonder if the man in HerBeX's story would have opened the car door if the driver had been another man. I kind of doubt it.

That must've been frightening, Hex.

I said to this guy who was offended by the woman running that he could've reduced her anxiety by slowing down or pausing to let her get ahead, or even crossing the road. Those would've been tiny things for him but would've reassured her somewhat. But it never even occurred to him, of course, that she'd be worried until she legged it.