Do you ever feel like fighting against porn is a losing battle?

Dione, define Fair Trade porn, please?

I'd like to see Fair Trade Porn. How can it degrade if the pay off between parties is equal? If we ensure that all parties are equal and children are not exposed to it, is it not a matter of personal adult choice? If it is, then what is wrong with that?

My favourite quotation on this subject came from an obscenity trial in the US. The judge, a fellow called Potter Stewart, regarding what constituited obscenity, said:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced?but I know it when I see it?"

I think my preferred course of action here is to teach people, by whatever means, that objectification (wnking over pictures, basically) degrades the participants (I'm including the wnker), can be an addiction and damages normal healthy relationships for all participants (again, I'm including the w*nker). I think 'porn' should also be stigmatised where ever possible. I'm not sure this happens sufficiently.

That's the other thing, jenny is right.

While I'm sure most of us would be in agreement about what constitutes porn. Not everyone actually does - which is where it gets a bit chaotic. And iffy.

I wouldn't want to risk someone deciding that anything with nudity in it was porn. We'd lose a lot of classic art for a start. It would have to be really clearly defined.

Good luck at trying to find a definition for 'pornography'.

BTW We have all heard of Mary Whitehouse here haven't we?

danni Depends on the petition. I don't think there is any porn on TV, aside from those dodgy extra channels. And I'd just be happy if there was an easy way to hide them. Not great always seeing them on your TV Guide.

Otherwise, not sure.

I'm a little wary of things like this, as sometimes people with less than savoury agendas/motives get involved. Eg. the ISP porn blocking chaos.

So who's in favour of a petition about controlling porn on TV? As far as I can see DontCallMePeanut and Skrumble would support a petition if the wording was right and Empusa might. Usure about anyone else.

I'm thinking an Downing Street e-petition, but that would be pointless unless it got widespread support which is why it's important to get the wording right before submitting. Should it be purely against something, or a balanced approach? Understand that could be uncomfortable for many people, but I'd like to see the authorities concentrating their efforts on widespread misogyny and sexism in ordinary everyday TV. There's plenty of DH who watch porn but don't want their kids watching and posts here suggest there are also couples who watch. Is it better to get enough signatures for a balanced petition to get debated in Parliament, or go for a pure one and fail?

So, who's in favour and what should the wording be?

Sorry, really had to drop in when I saw this.

windsorTides

"Really? The expectation for women to have ... hair straight and long enough to pull while you are throat-fucking her comes from the fashion industry does it?"

Are you saying that the trend for women to have long straight hair comes from porn?

Thank you sunshine. I would also add a reminder that campaigns against bad porn, even when started by feminists with feminist intent, always get co-opted by people whose agenda is not feminist-friendly at all. Look at the complete fucking mess Let Girls Be Girls turned into, for instance.

I completely agree sunshine, I saw SGB make that point on this or another thread and have been pondering on it a while.

Even though I am aware that there is ethical porn and that some performers genuinely enjoy it I am 'against' porn because I firmly believe that the majority of the industry is intensely damaging/misogynistic.

However, I think SGB makes a very valid point. I've been thinking about it for a while after an exchange we had on another, similar thread. Regardless of whether you believe that porn is chicken or egg when it comes to the sexualisation of children and the increase of violence towards women, it does not exist in a vacuum. If all porn was banned tomorrow, sexism would still exist, women would still be expected to conform to impossible standards of beauty and stereotyped/submissive ways of behaving.

Personally, I believe that the mainstreaming of porn is partially responsible for undesirable social effects such as pop music aimed at tweens featuring semi-naked women writhing around on chairs singing about whips and chains. However, I don't think the porn industry made it happen, I think it was co-opted. SGB talked about the rise of Murdoch's ilk of media-driven culture and I think she's right. The likes of Murdoch have simply used porn as a tool - to further their financial indomitability and their dominance of the media (sex sells after all). As a result, the way in which stories are sensationalised and presented in our media has had the effect of mainstreaming porn, normalising violence, encouraging suspicion and whipping up indignant, self-righteous frenzies - the 21st-century equivalent to the pitchfork mob.

I think it is far more useful to see the bigger picture - how does media perpetuate misogyny and sexism - than to concentrate on porn, which forms only one part of it. It is a problem, but it's a problem that would not exist without the context of our current media. I think that's why it feels as though we're facing a losing battle - we're attacking a symptom rather than the underlying cause.

danniclare - i would support any campaign to protect children from being overexposed to porn/porn-style material (was thrilled when i heard that music videos were going to start being watershedded where needed), for example - opting in for adult freeview channels. however, i wouldn't be comfortable once it got past that.

i acknowledge that there is a problem with the porn that currently exists both in terms of how it is produced and in terms of the overall message given by it but i just don't have a problem with the basic idea of adults wanting to watch other adults having sex...

and i first heard of vajazzling a couple of years ago from jennifer love hewitt being interviewed on the late late show - i believes she talks about it in one of her books. weird concept to me but i think to ascribe it to coming from the porn industry is probably erroneous.

WindsorTides: well all the stuff about vajazzling is from The ONly Way Is Essex for a start. And neither anal sex nor spunk on the face are inherently dreadful things that No Decent WOman would ever do.
The fashion industry is less of a problem than the mainstream media in general, though.

"I can't stand some of the porn that is two clicks away on the internet, but Mumsnet and Mumsnetters have rounded on the idea of joining the campaign to try to do something about it. Baffles me."

I think I know what you are referring to there, and the argument wasn't about allowing access to porn, just about the method of blocking it, and it's technical failings.

If I've got the wrong argument in mind, then I apologise in advance.

Really? The expectation for women to have hairless or vajazzled genitalia and hair straight and long enough to pull while you are throat-fucking her comes from the fashion industry does it? And the expectation that all women will consent to anal sex and a man spunking on to her face and in her eyes - that comes from the fashion industry too, does it?

Get real.

Me too. Something along the lines of opt-in making it impossible to accidentally click on a porn channel. And stopping kids from pulling up the channel.

Maybe something balanced about blocking porn without a deliberate opt-in and respecting adult choices?

And Ofcom concentrating on what really matters, like the casual sex in just about every drama. Representing every 16 year old as having an active sex life. Non-stop adverts. American garbage. Non-existent children's TV. Reality shows all over the place. Sorry too much wine.

Regards society in general, doubt a petition would achieve much.

I'm thinking more along the lines of changing the things wrt to the late night "porn channels" or whatever they're called.

I mean, if you have a petition going 'There's a lot wrong with the world and feminism could make it better' then people might agree with your statement and you might be able to get a few to post in on the FB status updates, but I can't see it being any more useful than all that crap about 'Post this to your status update if you think ducks are better than chickens'.

Oh great. Terrific. A petition saying what? Exactly? 'Stop anyone looking at porn because it's icky?' First you will have to define what you mean by porn. Anything which depicts nudity? Anything which mentions sex? Anything that mentions or depicts sexual practices that you personally dislike?

I'd glladly agree to signing a petition.

skrumble "i definitely have seen "live" stuff a lot earlier than midnight - i think 9.30/10.00? and my 11yo when on holiday would often get to stay up till 10 or 11 at night..."
organicgardener "When I see iffy stuff on telly before the watershed it makes me squirm.
Even as an adult you don't want it suddenly appearing on the telly while your parents are there."

What would anyone think about a petition? Something with broad appeal?

The pressure on women to conform to a certain physical type is not wholly or even mainly driven by the porn industry, though. All this very damaging fat-phobia and size-zero obsession comes from the fashion industry and has its roots in the very profound cultural idea that it's wrong for women to eat much or enjoy food. And the pressure on women to be heteromonogamous - to find The One Man and keep him by any means necessary - that doesn't spring from the porn industry either, yet the cultural fixation on love, romance, The One and all that is what often keeps women in abusive or at least very dysfunctional relationships.
DanniClare also makes a very good point about the amount of exploitation that goes on in mainstream entertainment - people who are not in the best mental health get turned into prime time freakshow entertainment then dropped by the show, to spend the rest of their lives having beercans chucked at them by their neighbours. Things like Trisha and Jeremy Kyle (the shows, though the same goes for the presenters really) make cartoons out of the not very bright and the not very educated - and though sometimes these people are not very nice they are rarely axe murderers or genocide-peddlers - and once the show is over, they are left to flounder, again quite probably being shunned or mocked by neighbours.
But they haven't had sex on camera and no one else has had a wank watching them, so they of course don't matter half as much as those porn performers, particularly the ones who keep insisting that actually they enjoy performing.