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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Burning Times: fascinating docu on women's power before Christianity

985 replies

sakura · 28/05/2011 01:15

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#at=380 youtube]]

ANd why women are feared to the extent that they are accused of witchcraft and killed for it

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dittany · 30/05/2011 16:06

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dittany · 30/05/2011 16:06

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claig · 30/05/2011 16:03

Thanks, Tyr. Interesting about Crowley and the gang.

MillyR · 30/05/2011 16:01

Lots of work is done on gender in pre-Christian Europe.

StewieGriffinsMom · 30/05/2011 15:59

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Tyr · 30/05/2011 15:55

claig Mon 30-May-11 14:21:46

According to some of those articles, it seems that a guy called Gerald Gardner in the 1950s was instrumental in creating what is now known as the Wiccan religion, and that he had links with the ubiquitous Alesiter Crowley. Is that true or wide of the mark?
claig Mon 30-May-11 14:21:46

Among others, not least Crowley himself, T. Allen Greenfield has written on this in "The secret history of modern witchcraft" which is a decent introductory text for anyone interested in this aspect of the issue Crowley was almost certainly involved in the writing of many of the rituals, although the extent of his involvement is disputed by Wiccan authors, keen to downplay his involvement.
The remnants of various aspects of folk belief would not have been recorded or codified, other than through the fantastical and delusional polemics of christian persecutors.
Crowley sought a religion for the masses that would displace christianity; he found a willing channael for its promulgation through Gardner who was already, by all accounts, a member of Crowley's O.T.O.
Despite later attempts at revisionism, the rites as recorded, bear an uncanny resemblance to invocations written by Crowley for his own order.
As for christianity arriving in the twelfth century, the only part of the western world this might refer to is Iceland, which was the last of the Norse cultures to succumb to the new faith.
It is rather pointless to revise or view gender roles in pre-christian Europe through a feminist lens; these roles were defined by nature and necessity, not ideology. Similarly, the persecution of heretics cannot be viewed solely as part of a perceived history of the oppression of women per se.
As I remember from reading some of the accounts, the victims were often accused by female neighbours, possibly out of spite or jealousy.

StewieGriffinsMom · 30/05/2011 15:54

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MillyR · 30/05/2011 15:52

Well briefly, they are incorrect about the time period that it happened in, who were the victims, who were the perpetrators, where it happened, what the victims believed, what the victims lives were like, why the victims were accused and what happened to the accused.

You are right that the witch trials did happen and that most of the victims were women.

dittany · 30/05/2011 15:45

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StewieGriffinsMom · 30/05/2011 15:35

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MillyR · 30/05/2011 15:34

It isn't overall a correct version of events. Most of it is either wrong or irrelevant. It tells us almost nothing about what actually happened to those women during the witch trials.

It is just a lot of nonsense about neo-paganism. They clearly couldn't care less about the actual beliefs or lives of the women involved. They don't even bother to name them.

Reality · 30/05/2011 15:32

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 15:27

I said that the message of that film is not feminist, and I stand by that. It not feminist to pretend that women were strong and empowered during a time when we know they were not. The fact that the film-makers identify as feminists makes it more problematic, not less, because they make feminists look bad.

It is certainly not feminist to defend the film on the grounds that its inaccuracies don't matter and that misrepresentation is acceptable if the end message is feminist.

I'm out of this thread, at least for a bit, but I stand by what I'm saying here.

dittany · 30/05/2011 15:26

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dittany · 30/05/2011 15:23

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StewieGriffinsMom · 30/05/2011 15:19

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MitchiestInge · 30/05/2011 15:16

witch hunts today

Reality · 30/05/2011 15:15

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MisterDarsey · 30/05/2011 15:13

dittany

What puzzles me is that you are obviously (and justifiably) outraged by these events and yet you dont seem to have much interest in getting a proper historical explanation of why they happened. Don't you think women's history deserves something better than vague New Age generalisations about the alleged power of women in 'pagan' times versus the patriarchy & misogyny of the Church?

Why for example was it only during a specific period of Church history - the 15th to 17th centuries - that the witch craze really took off? Is it related in some way to the rise of capitalism, colonialism and/or the slave trade, which were also going on at that time? Did it arise spontaneously as a kind of mass hysteria or was it part of a deliberate plot by the powers that be? For anyone interested in the Burning Times, these are really essential questions.

Reality · 30/05/2011 15:13

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dittany · 30/05/2011 15:12

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garlicbutter · 30/05/2011 15:04

Aha! Papua New Guinea. Thanks!

MitchiestInge · 30/05/2011 15:02

S pacific I think? Near Aus?

garlicbutter · 30/05/2011 14:56

Where's PNG?

MitchiestInge · 30/05/2011 14:53

Anyway, as if this thread has not been depressing enough (although was good opportunity to find out how much my 12yo knew about the two main witch craze phases in Europe and why witches are portrayed with green lumpy faces :() we might as well remind ourselves that witch hunting (and you could largely substitute woman for witch) is still alive and well today in India, Africa, PNG and probably other places.

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