The Burning Times: fascinating docu on women's power before Christianity

sorry - pages taking ages to load - there was only 12 posts when i chimed in! apologies if debate has moved on.

dittany, it's not using 'scholarship' at all. If it were, it would not be full of obvious errors.

Interesting, though, that you're fine with feminist scholars as long as they're pig-ignorant.

That is true dittany. 'Underinformed' does suggest some knowledge was there in the first place.

So it seems women did have power - they were the 'medicine women', controlled reproduction, and were the 'wise elders'.

for an intelligent perspective on modern-day paganism, you could read "the spiral dance" by starhawk. i haven't read it for a decade or so but it was instrumental in waking me up as a woman. also, although she's pretty controversial and has her own agenda for sure, monica sjoo. she wrote "the great cosmic mother" which is exhaustive and exhausting...would be interested to hear how accurate a portayal anyone knows that to be.

I'm just saying that's what I 'know', or was taught at some point - it might not be true that that's why witches have green faces (bruising) or big lumpy noses (fractures) but have assumed this is what everyone knows or believes about it.

Gildas! Ha!

this is a extreemly interesting thread-thankyou Sakura.

I think it's pretty obvious there are no documentaries of the Witch Trials from a feminist perspective, though.

the witchcraze has been covered up, almost completely

... that's just not true! It was comprehensively covered at my schools - the Black Country has good records going back to the Domesday Book, and many of the places are named for wiccan icons. Plus, every old cathedral and large church I've visited in England features a panel somewhere about the witch trials, naming any notable witches burned locally.

As others have been saying: it's great that the film alerted you to a phenomenon you'd been under-informed about, Dittany. But that doesn't mean everyone else was unaware of it, nor that the film's points were good or well-made.

SGM - and I smirk at the venerable Bede and give you Constantine the Great.

'today's sort of Halloween witches are portrayed with green lumpen faces because of being tortured,'

Green has always been the colour of magic in folklore, and the supernatural. Another theory is the links to paganism and the forest spirits like the Green man.
Or the wizard of Oz's Esmarelda AKA the Wicked Witch of the West.
I've never seen a dressing up witch made up with signs of injury or torture, they are usually free and powerful with a broomstick or a cauldron for a prop.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13082240

Good times for women in Iron Age (not sodding "celtic") Derbyshire.

'Why, then, was it ok to pretend that a culture that felt a raped woman should blame and kill herself, was some kind of pre-Christian epitome of woman power?'

That is precisely why the documentary got off to such a bad start with me. I don't understand, other than for the promotion of whatever neo-pagan beliefs the filmmakers hold dear, why they did this. Why not tell the truth about the state of things before Christianity?

'However I'm a feminist, so I think understanding of the situation of women is more important than errors in detail and background.'

Why, then, was it ok to pretend that a culture that felt a raped woman should blame and kill herself, was some kind of pre-Christian epitome of woman power?

How can you possibly square that?

HH, Trier isn't in England though.

So, are we disregarding the Anglo-Saxon church in England altogether?
Oh, and 28th September 1066. We go to the re-enactment of the battle of Hastings every year. They try and be accurate about the battle tactics and weaponry. But they don't actually kill people.

I am genuinely surprised that people from the UK might not already know about any of this, and have been trying to work out how I know what I know and how my children know what they know (not sure how accurate this is) - which is that the overwhelming majority of those persecuted were women, how it tied in with the rise of Protestantism and that tension/power struggle thing with Rome, medicalisation of childbirth with midwives and healing traditions coming under suspicion; and as I alluded to earlier, that today's sort of Halloween witches are portrayed with green lumpen faces because of being tortured, facial injuries etc. before being paraded through towns and villages. Maybe because it also happened in East Anglia? A mums netter grazes her ponies on Matthew Hopkins supposed grave for example.

If this is somehow not common knowledge then perhaps yes, this documentary is a start. I think it's important to point out again that this is still happening to women in parts of the world today.