The Burning Times: fascinating docu on women's power before Christianity

I agree that Christianity was syncrenistic, just as Celtic religions were before it. As someone keeps pointing out on this thread, the Celts didn't live in Britain, but their culture certainly came here. Religious beliefs changed many times before the Christians came along, and each religion took on some aspects of the one that had been there before, particularly taking over sacred sites. I don't really see any great difference between the extent to which religion changed due to Christianity and the the extent to which it changed between different forms of paganism. One of the reasons Christianity did take hold was because it was so similar to other religious beliefs already in existence.

I don't think the Protestants have got rid of worship of Mary. Most Christians worldwide are still Catholics.

Try - I don't disagree, but I made the point about the RCC because dittany has spent the thread rubbishing it. I think you could argue it's a religion with room for female spirituality, but I hope she will recognize that simply finding artefacts (like the Sulis image) that show women, does not necessary prove that the society who made them venerated, or even tolerated, women.

That's interesting garlicbutter, can you give some examples of cathedrals and large churches with exhibitions about witch trials? I'll have to look out for them in future.

I am angry about it, goodkate.

I find it really offensive because I do care about the real women who were alive then, and what happened to them. And I do find it offensive too that this film totally ignores research (lots of it by women) about what was happening, in favour of making up a story.

I am really interested in pre-Christian religion, but obviously it is not easy to reconstruct given that literacy and Christianity are so closely linked in Europe, except for the Romans. Now, we know the Romans were patriarchial as all heck. But it's very hard to tell what and how people worshipped in non-literate societies. There are lots of interesting theories, but instead of discussing them that film presented a completely rubbish made-up definition of 'witch' from Anglo-Saxon ... and we know the Anglo-Saxons didn't venerate woman power, because for them we do have written records. Not to mention, Christianity. Basically, it's a mish-mash of details that sound vaguely erudite (but are crap), cut together with quotations from modern witches talking about woman power.

Alice, I said that because Dittany shared that she thought the witch trials had been covered up by history. Whereas, if you go to old cathedrals & large churches (as most people do at some point), you will find accounts of the witch trials and the names of locally well-known witches who were killed. It's not usually offered with any sort of bias afaict, it's an acknowledgement of a violent part of local history in which that church was involved.

tyr, i do agree, in general, with your views on starhawk. as mentioned above, i didn't read the whole thread, and would not have suggested looking at her work to illuminate more work by her if i had! however, i stand by my assertion that she was instrumental in waking me up to certain things that my gcse level history had neglected to educate me about. would hope that i've grown up a little further in the 10-15 years that have elapsed though!

yes AliceWorld[nodding].

Are they/were they guilty of the oppression of the masses or just women?

Did men suffer during our middle ages? Were they oppressed too? Was it just women?

I think the area is complex but I think what I am trying to emphasis is the power everyone but particularly women in the western world now have. It is our choice to use it and we must use it well and carefully.

It's no good burning our bra's anymore nor pretending we can do it all cos I just can't. We have to do it our way, in a way that suits us and we will succeed.

I believe that there is another way!

LRD,

There are indeed those who interpret the R. Catholic religion as one of female spirituality and the church accomodates those who direct their devotions to the Virgin Mary. What we know of pre-christian religious belief is that it was pantheistic, not about goddess worship or any of that twaddle.( that emphasis came largely from new age witches as a reaction against the patriarchal nature of the church) One is as bad as the other.
Someone mentioned Marian churches. It was a policy of the early church to build on sites sacred to pagan deities- both male and female. It was not so much an absorption of the feminine as an absorption of all that preceded it. Similalrly, many saints correspond to pagan deities
This is at the root of the word "catholic"

I'm not entirely sure that 'forcing' is the right word for syncretism. It's the secret of christianity's success - as, indeed, of every religion that's taken over from its predecessors. In Latin America, syncretism is very much visible - christianity runs parallel with macumba/santeria/candomble, with each of the African spirits allied to a christian saint.

Sparky, that's kinda what I'm saying too. And you've reminded me, the post that says something about going in the church to look at the records of this stuff as that's where they're kept. Really? Cos they won't be a teensy bit biased or anything

But if no-one knows that it did, no-one equally knows that it didn't. This is what always gets me about all the history stuff. Beyond a certain point, we do not know. We interpret things that are available to us now through lenses we place on them now. The history we tell now is framed by patriarchy. Once we've smashed it (so maybe 2015?) we'll look at it through different frames. Just like people 200 hundred years ago would have talked about 600 year old history differently. The stories we tell have to resonate with the now for them to make sense. So an alternative telling of history does not make me think 'oh look here's the truth' any more that a malestream history makes me think 'here's the truth'. There all parts of a picture that we do not know the answer to cos there isn't one.

It's like the joke thing with the different events that were the start of Christianity in the UK, or whatever they are. Whilst I've no idea what you're referring to, cos it isn't my bag, there are seem to be several options you can pick from. Much like why did the war start, cos some guy got shot. Well yes but there's a heck of a lot more to it than that.

BTW did anyone else read the other link I posted waaay back. Interested in whether that is seen as inaccurate too as I don't have the historical knowledge to know.

(And when I was googling I found a link to only blooming Mary Daly speaking so utterly off topic but I thought people might like it away)

Why compare the Middle East with China, Kate?

I did a bit of homework on the Green Man, having recently moved onto his home turf. You can't walk a hundred yards round here without seeing one. Was quite surprised at what an old misogynist he is. And not particularly nice, either. He could be just as vicious as Jehovah. I was expecting to find that the old religion had been all fruit, fertility and flowers, not to mention woman-friendly. But, nah :(

LRD you are rather angry about this film aren't you?

Perhaps it should be used in context to the world that was then and were we are now - I haven't watched it - but I think the important thing right now is that it's still going on in many parts of the world.

Lets compare say the Middle East with China.

yep it is SAF[its a shame this thread.......]
im finding this very interesting.
yes-id like to see a proper discussion on the same things youve just mentioned also.
a question[to anyone/everyone]-
im not sure what to think about the timing of history but i do agree that its important to aknowledge that this did happen to women[and is still happpening]
how can timing be right when long ago a lot of people couldnt read and write?
would this mean that we have only got the writings of the more privaledged?

But no-one knows that paganism had anything to do with female spirituality. You might as well say that given Catholics venerate the Virgin Mary, Catholicism must be a religion of female spirituality.

All that guff about women preserving traditions was just that - guff. We have no idea what traditions they might have preserved but I am 100% sure it was not 'bending and shaping consciousness' for the reasons that woman claimed.

This is another half truth. Knowledge of herbs etc was widespread (by necessity) and not exclusive to women. Herbal knowledge was a feature of monastic life, the Benedictines and, a little later, the Cistercians being expert, having copied texts from the ancients. Long beofre 1132.
Starhawk is an American self publicist who has botched together idealised bits and bobs from all manner of unlikely quarters and spun them into something that initially took root in California (surprise, surprise) and then, by way of some dreadful new age books with airbrushed covers, spread like swine flu to the gullible elsewhere. Until she was mentioned here, I hadn't heard of her for the best part of 15 years or more.
The fact that she was an advisor to this film would explain a lot; she was never one to let rational analysis or reasoned historical perspective intrude on her 60's LSD casualty view of the world.
If you know anything of the western mystery traditions, you'll know that the hoseshit she peddles has about as much validity as her last president's wisdom in the field of geography.