The Burning Times: fascinating docu on women's power before Christianity

You get into an exploration of what capitalism is, and whether patriarchy is an outcome of capitalism (or vice versa?) The questions are very interesting, and fundamental to feminism. I probably won't feel able to contribute to the discussion but will be reading it with interest!

FWIW - and this is my opinion, not a continuance of any theory - I feel that oppression has always been a precondition of capital growth. Such oppression hasn't always been necessarily targeted at women, but women have been among oppressed groups and have generally ended up double-oppressed: the oppressed groups seeking someone to oppress for their own benefit. As it's often said here, women tend to end up at the bottom of any pile.

My particular interest in this process is less about how & why women have historically been targeted by 'owner' oppression - that seems obvious to me. I'm more exercised by women are still being oppressed in industrially-developed societies, and what to do about it.

Technology was supposed to relieve the need for a servant/slave/underdog class and it should, really, have done so. Nobody seems to have thought through the economics of it, though. I was told not to do my dissertation on this matter, way back when, and it looks as if "They" are still afraid to examine the question. I do feel we're living through an exciting time for women. I'll be watching the discussion with interest!

What a ridiculous thread, and no end in sight

For anyone seriously interested in understanding the witch craze I'm re-posting a link to an article about it (a book review). It's from a marxist viewpoint, which you may not agree with, but at least it's a genuine attempt to make sense why these terrible events happened, based on logic and historical evidence.

Who Were the Witches? ? Patriarchal Terror and the Creation of Capitalism

lucysnowe, I really appreciate your 'drive-by' posting at 09:47 :) everything you said; you said it very well.

This thread typifies my reasons for trying to avoid the Feminism board these days:
~ Somebody highlighted a big statement by feminists.
~ The statement was taken at face value.
~ Then somebody else said "Hang on a second, that's incorrect!"
... Instead of going "Really? That's interesting! Enlighten us as to the proper facts, let's continue to discuss this issue in alternative contexts, then, and see how it's relevant to women nowadays" ...
~ A core of posters immediately rejected the factual criticism;
~ Called the critics anti-feminist;
~ Misinterpreted the critics' understandable outrage as personal attack;
~ Continued to hold an untenable position ...
... turning the discussion into a personal battle.

It is a depressing example of (some) feminists doing exactly what holds feminism back: turning important issues into ego battles, thus ignoring the wider discussion, and rigidly clinging to a demonstrably weak position. This makes it look as though feminism has no real case. An anti-feminist could reasonably hold this thread up as evidence that feminists tell lies and feminism is all about "women complaining pointlessly".

You're not the only board regular who does the above, dittany, but you're a strongly influential example. I must have read thousands of your posts over the years - and I have learned much useful stuff from you - but I don't think I've ever seen you reconsider your point of view. It could be beneficial to all of us if you became a little more flexible in your discussion.

Goblinchild,

Thanks for the clarification.

Pathetic.

'By the way, what does ?MRAtastic? mean?'

Men's Rights Activists
So, something they would find fantastic.
It's used as a negative indicator on the feminist boards.

yep-i agree.
which is a great shame-ive found it really really interesting.
i havent understood a lot of whats been said but this dont matter-ill keep looking at stuff untill i do.
there has been some fantastic links and this is something that im interested in looking at further.

Dittany,

How do you expect to understand, let alone have a valid perspective on a turbulent period of history, using a spurious ?documentary? and a copy of the Malleus as your source documents?
These were cruel times for all, largely the poor.
As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, heretics of both genders suffered. Are you writing out the male victims? By so doing, you present an agenda informed more by blatant ignorance and misandry, than feminism.
You cannot reduce a period of history like that; all you are doing, like the film makers, is presenting a risible caricature which makes a mockery of any cause.
By the way, what does ?MRAtastic? mean?

I don't think there's any shame in being ignorant and I've said so. There is shame in celebrating ignorance or, as this film does, in misrepresenting facts in order to take advantage of ignorance.

I agree with you we'd be much, much better off if we did more listening and learning, but every time I've tried to learn about feminist texts from Dittany she has responded angrily, and every time people on this thread have responded to her questions about where this film in inaccurate, she has responded by insisting the facts don't matter. She won't learn, and she won't let others learn.

Yes, I know this is a personal comment but I think it needs saying. And I think this thread should die a natural death - it's getting us nowhere.

well-this is horrible isnt it!
maybe im missing something but surely feminism isnt about fighting with each other?
maybe we look at things from diffrent angles sometime because of what we each know and what we each understand/not understand and life experiance.
there is nothing wrong with this!
why cant we just hear each other and look at what each others got to say
thats how we learn and understand.
to be calling others ignorant is horrible-thats what men call women to shut them up and we dont need to be calling each other this.
is there a heirarchy in feminism that im missing?
ifso-im fucked then and might as well get my coat!

Dittany, that's not comparing the film makers to rapists. Read it again. It's saying (as I have said repeatedly) that it is never ok to lie, and that lying is a feminist issue. This does not mean I think the film makers are rapists. It means I think they are liars, and that lying is a very, very sensitive issue for feminism, which they decided to crap all over with their piece of religious propaganda.

I'm not pointing out your ignorance as a side issue. I'm pointing it out because you seem to think it is good for feminists to be ignorant, and good to champion ignorant propaganda, so long as it looks vaguely feminist to you (though obviously, this film is far more likely to damage feminism than promote it).

Cross-post: thanks lucy.

Dittany, I never compared the film-makers to rapists and I don't think anyone else did. I have made the point, repeatedly, that lying is not something any feminist should think is acceptable, especially when it is lying in order to make a feminist point. The parallel with rape apologetics isn't something I'm mentioning to make you angry or to offend, it's something I'm mentioning because it is an extremely obvious parallel.

Women who define themselves as feminists don't suddenly get carte blanche to say and do whatever they like with no responsibilities to anyone else. The people who made this film obviously decided their message was more important than the facts, so they falsified those facts. Only a very stupid person could be credulous enough to call these 'mistakes', so let's not pretend that again. So yes, I am angry that they decided it was ok to misrepresent women's history. Yes, I do think that for someone to present themselves as a feminist and then misrepresent the facts in order to make a 'feminist' point is hugely inappropriate given that this is precisely what misogynists claim feminists do in the context of rape. If you cannot understand that parallel, I can't help you, but that doesn't make it any less obvious or important.

As to outrage on this thread, what I find interesting is that the majority of people are aware of the Witch Trials and have explained that they are taught in schools, memorialized in churches and ingrained in folk culture. Yes, I'm sure they could be taught more - it's very sad that a small number of people were unaware of this horrible part of history. But can you not see how arrogant it is to suggest your own ignorance is the ignorance of the masses? This film isn't, as has been suggested, the 'only' piece of information about Witch Trials out there. It's bad, and dishonest, and bad for feminism.

LRD, you're not alone, I'm with you!!

I never usually venture into Feminism and will not post again (and apologise for drive-by type postings earlier - and that's to everyone), but I just thought I would give you my support.

I hate, hate, hate, this Disneyfication of history and the patriarchy that reduces women to feeble floaty moony herb gathering weirdos and men to evil one-dimensional embodiments of CHURCH and SCIENCE &tc. It severely denigrates the REAL women who were living at that time, and the women who were accused of being witches. Many of them were very poor, ignorant, and unfairly ostracised (as were the men - some 'wisemen', some clergymen - who were also accused) as are many women today who also require our sympathy and support as feminists and as human beings. Many of the accusers were women (and men) and their reasons for accusation, and the whole social environment they lived in is also important to examine, and can give us a better understanding of their day to day existence.

I can't help being upset at the casual way they played with history, because to me it's real people's lives - no-one should lie about it, even to make an inspiring story. Sorry. I just can't feel any other way than that. I think it's especially important for women because we are so often told we're liars about all sorts of things - rape, especially, of course. It seems like a doubled oppression to falsify women's history.

Exactly. As you say, there are about a million historial examples of male individuals and the patriarchy in general oppressing women without having to make up shit.

Take care.

I do think the outrage is fascinating as well, Sakura. It happens a lot though, because in many situations like this you have:

People who want to take aspects of the past and make them part of their identity, often aspects of the past that are from other cultures geographically or from very distant time periods. Sometimes this is politically motivated from an ethnic perspective or from a gender perspective.

People who experience the past as folklore.

People who study evidence from the past and have competing views, and different political perspectives.

All of these people may feel a sense of responsibility to remember people's experiences in the past. That is incredibly emotional because people will feel that if the suffering in the past can be forgotten then the suffering of people we know now can also be disregarded. It can feel as if we are being dehumanised.

That is going to cause conflict. But all three are necessary, as long as there is a distinction made about which is which. People want to remember the past in different ways, but people can use their interpretations to justify some terrible things in the present.

I don't live in a major witch trial area now, but I did when I was younger. It casts a very long shadow. There was an area near us (a wood) which we were not allowed to go into as children, because of its association with the witch trials. That is essentially a folk connection; you cannot teach that emotional response to a tragedy from hundreds of years ago in a school. Schools teach the past in the context of learning a set of historical investigation skills; it is never going to replace people learning about their culture from their own community. It is an entirely different process, and while it is worthwhile to study history in school(although my kids aren't going to, beyond the compulsory KS3 years), the kind of impact people on this thread want the witch trials to have is not going to happen through a history lesson.