Feminists shouldn't try to stifle debate about abortion

Doing a WOlf!

I have a new crush on swallowedAfly :)
And am drunk, so excused a flippantly meant (meantedly flippant?) post on this supposedly rigorous board.
xxx SAF xxx
You talk sense.

hmmm-super feminists?
them should be more worried that the underclass are finnally willing to stand up=
im willing to lead my underclass sisters all the way-
this should be interesting!
sparky x

swallowedafly Oh sorry, that'd be my fault, I've been flying around the world in my spangly cape with my hairy legs on show a lot recently, castrating men with my laser vision and everything. I move at the speed of light so it often seems to poor put-upon men that there are armies of us but it's just me.

Seriously, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we ended up taking some massively regressive steps in terms of the availability / legality of abortion in the UK. Cold-shouldering out charities & organisations that are pro-choice - well it's not a million miles away from what they've just done to the Poppy Project is it? Take the funding away from those uppity women who criticise the government and give it to a nice safe pair of male, right-wing, religious hands.

Deborah Orr really is talking shit, btw.

as usual, Deborah Orr is talking shit.

It's a backlash because the last government actually did do some stuff that helped women and now that is being rolled back, there has to be lots of chatter about feminists around it for cover.

It really shows how little power we have as a group, doesn't it?

It's such a fantasy isnt' it, feminists "stifling" debate - like we control all the media, Fox News,Sky TV, the BBC, the Guardain, the News International Corp, the Telegraph, Dow Jones, all those media outlets are all run by radical feminists, parliament...

Oh, wait...

I thoguht she was more intelligent than this. I have no idea why I thought this, maybe because the last time I read an article by her was at least 5 years ago.

Ok two things for me really resonate _ haven?t' dared to read everything except op and article cos I don?t want my confused head to get turned around.

In Ireland where I grew up in the 80/90's the full horror of no medical / or any other advice or counseling (it was illegal to even discuss the possibility of abortion in any medical or counselling situation) became very real on so many levels. it very simply resulted in women on boats to UK very desperate sometimes/ often too late and certainly with zero mental or financial support

We at one point even had a referendum as to whether women 'could' and please think about this " travel for an abortion". People all over the country voted on this. Luckily it was rejected but could you imagine how would you instigate such a law? Should every woman have a urine test as soon as they travel abroad in order to check whether they are planning to travel to abort a fetus? What does that say about the freedom of women in any society?? It wasn't so long ago and not so far away.

Second point is: no we should not stifle debate and indeed think about how complex this is in our lives but don't forget who's bodies are involved and what a brutal thing the law can be ....

don't worry, I don't treats... I know they, just like me, don't have a "choice" about getting raped. I don't know percentages, obviously, but I would guess that are many pregnancies that occur not because a woman was raped in a legal sense, but that her consent was comprimised by exactly that "just 17" thinking you describe. That, I hope, I can help my dds avoid by making absolutely clear that it's total BS. I was lucky to grow up with a group of strong women, so that that kind of thinking has always been an anathema to me. Don't worry, I'm not buying into any myths. Much too educated for that!!

But stickylittlefingers - that's the sort of thinking that plays into Nadine Dorries' hands - the idea that women are completely free to choose when, where and how they have sex and who with, and it's only their lack of self respect/ poor judgement/ desire for a council house that leads to them having unprotected sex and getting pregnant. Personally I think it's a dangerous fallacy.

There's rape, for a start - much discussed recently on this board - which doesn't give women much choice about their sexual activity. No amount of self respect will help you if you meet a rapist.

But beyond that, there's a huge amount of coercive pressure on young women by individual men and the messages that society at large sends them. "He says he'll dump me if I don't sleep with him" was an old chestnut in the Just 17 problem pages when I was a teen, and I don't think for a minute that it's changed now. "He says condoms spoil the sensation" was another old favourite which I don't think has gone out of fashion.

You might argue that the bucket loads of self respect you're instilling in your daughters will protect them from that kind of bullslhit - and you might be right - but think about the other messages that your girls are getting. The coverage of Michelle Obama this week has been much more about what she's wearing than what she's been saying. Which is just the tip of an iceberg of female representation that prioritises their appearance, because women's main function in life is to be attractive to men. So that men can pursue the fantasy that women are there to serve them.

Your second paragraph I agree with completely. But don't buy into the myth that women and girls have complete freedom of choice over their sexual behaviour, and it's all their fault if they get pregnant.

quite, very unpleasant.

Well, yes. Out of all the women I've known well enough to know whether they've had an abortion (must be hundreds, over the years), I'm the ONLY one who never has done. I'm talking about normal, educated, British women, mostly of the white, middle-class variety. What 'girls' are all these similarly educated pundits talking about?

... Not like themselves and their friends, presumably

If all young women had a good dollop of self respect, they would probably be better at choosing when they wanted to have sex/with whom/with what protection. I'm hoping that my dds will have enough self respect to make those choices. Hopefully then, they won't ever need to take the abortion route. If they did, however, I would give them the respect of making the choice that was right for them, whatever that was.

It drives me fucking mad to hear people talk about "girls" like they were some kind of sub species. Any woman who does not think she might at some point need to face a decision about an unwanted pregenancy at some point in her pre-menopausal life is sadly deluded.

Yes the solution is that better women (ie ones who pretend not to have sex except in strictly prescribed circumstances and don't have contraceptive failures) confiscate our babies and bring them up as their's.

And we get put in Magdalen laundries and wash rapists' priests' clothes.

[Not v. good at cheering up SaF icon]