'Man-hating feminism'

sparky, thanks - I'm sorry, I'm leaving. There are lots of ways I could say 'this place is too welcoming and enabling to subtle and not so subtle man-hating' and this is how I'm doing it, quite arbitrarily I suppose. To many, the man-haters, it will be easily dismissed - because rarely do they say 'all men are bastards. But nevertheless I think my quote grabbing shows the truth about the group think here)

I suspect my last post was probably pointless.

Something tells me that Catmilk is not interested in a reasoned debate/discussion.

I'm seriously baffled as to how anyone could come on mumsnet and deduce that 'we' all hate men. There must be thousands of people posting on here - individuals with their own ideas and opinions, of different ages, posting across class, racial, and geographical boundaries.

It's pretty obvious this group of people are going to have divergent opinions and will disagree with each other. Some people will get along and some won't.

That's pretty basic stuff, isn't it?

The only things 'we' have in common, broadly speaking, is that 'we' post on Mumsnet.

If you're going to say all of MN 'hate men' you may as well say all women hate men.

blackcurrants -People call you a man-hater when you don't namby-pamby, 'Oh of course I don't mean YOU, not all men are like that, well it's not so bad really as it was, oh dear let's not upset the precious little menz' around the place and say what's really wrong with men oppressing women.

[No bc, I suspect you might hate men when you use phrases like 'lets not upset the precious little menz - reverse the sexes and see how it looks]

Sardine - There are a lot of people who post on this board about how feminists hate men, and they do everyone a disservice, and how if feminists were less strident/shrieky/argumentative/uncompromising and would just stop for a minute and arrange some flowers then they'd get a lot more done then more people would listen etc etc.

{No, its not about some feminists being strident or shrieky, as yr straw man has it - its about the number of feminists who treat all men (except their darling feminist partner so how could they hate all men QED!' (like misogynists saying 'but I love my mum, so i can't be!') all men except feminist partner (but sometimes him too) as the enemy, and conflate the bad ones with all of them, and and suggest all men are into keeping women into their place when most men like women and want them to have all the rights and opportuities as anyone else, are against sexism etc]

Ayerobot -Disappointed in Libby Purves. She is of course, entirely misguided both in her view of feminists and the point of the book.

I wonder if she has an understandably skewed view of a difficult book about a mother and a son given that her own son committed suicide a few years a ago.

[Charitable!? A unfounded kick in the teeth more like - and anyone want to dispute the idea that the loss of a son will possibly make you critical of feminism a kicking? No? Thought not]

sakura - Lionel Shriver definitely has a misogynistic streak in her. In the beginning at that book she says that a shiver of revulsion runs through "people" when they see a pregnant woman. Here, I assume people= men

[I bet you like assuming stuff eh,, sakura. especially if it helps you man-hate]

sakura - And misogynistic writers are always given an enormous platform, whether they're male or female
[orsinian enters with that list of man-hating feminist quotes]

end of part 2

fucking hell Catmilk-theres going to be a part 2?
wow-and its only 10 am.
instead of pulling apart peoples posts would you like to talk about the real reason youre angry instead?
i did wonder if you was a troll but from seeing the time on youre first post and now seeing youre last post i dont think this.
you obviously have a problem with feminists-so talk about it.
its ok to be angry here-this is a safe space,
women are allowed to be angry here.[we are not man hating and bitter]
why are you angry and why are you directing it at people on here?

"Mumsnet is a farce, It only welcomes mothers if they hate men, and if you hate men whether you are a mother or not isn't really important"

WTF??

Oh Catmilk sorry, but you have just made me laugh so much. I can't get the image of you in a Sherlock Holmes style deerstalker with a big magnifying glass examining MN for evidence that 'feminists' (LOVE the inverted commas) hate men, out of my head.

ROFL @ quilting

I have heard that meditation is very calming for a troubled soul

Bit weird to quote posters out of context to create a dialogue that didn't exist originally

maybe quilting could bring you peace?

Oh and this is the part where you all accuse me of being a man - because no woman could find constant male bashing offensive, right? The same as how no man would ever complain about sexism or misogyny ('They wouldn't!' say some members here...)

"Why would you bump this thread nearly a month later?"

Found it a good example of male-bashing going unchecked, which I have already seen plenty of in the 2 weeks I've been here

"Why are you on MN?"

Thought it might be a nice forum for mums. Thats not really what it is or has become.

part one. I realised that maybe a thread on the Feminism page might not be indicative of all mumsnetters, but since my time here I have seen how the extreme feminists man-haters rule the roost, and with my last thread asked if anyone thought there was a man-hating element to some feminism and noboday agreed... further off-site reading has made me sure I have the right idea.

Some problems/highlights of this thread -

quireelquarrel - I detest this 'branch' of feminism. And it is a branch and it should be stamped out....
The two most strident feminists I know are full of mysandric vitriol. Whenever they say something perceptive and sensible, they will invariably follow it up with something vituperative about the men they've known, or men in general, or "they are the cause of all this...oh for a man-free world!" etc.

msris What is this 'branch' of feminism? I haven't seen it.

sardqeen = How strange. I don't think I know any women who hate men as a group.
I know some women who are scared of men, and so don't like them.

That's different though I think.

-[the point here is ALL of us have met some women who hate all men, and some of them ccall themselves feminists. Just denying it makes you look guilty or stupid.]

anyfucker - I have never met a woman who hates "men" as a generic group

TrillianAstra - I have read things written by people who claim to be feminists who appear to feel that men are the enemy. Therefore they are man-hating feminists.It's not what I would call feminism, but then perhaps I am confusing myself with a form of humanism and I am not feminist at all.

[yay Trilian btw]

SybilB
I haven't come across this either. Definitely not a 'branch'.

[ooh you fibbers!]

Beachcomber - Uppity is a bloody great word isn't it? It just reeks of women who don't know their place type sexism.

[I have never been called uppity in my life nor seen it applied to any women in print anywhere!]

Sybilb - IME the people who complain about manhating feminists are the same people as the ones who think Andrea Dworkin said all men were rapists.

[Let loose the dogs of straw!]

MrIC - It is a popular misconception of feminism though, probably a myth perpetrated and augmented by sensationalist reporting (by men, I imagine)But it's also very pervasive - I've got a couple of female students who consistently come out with extremely pro-feminist statements, but then when we talk about feminism their reaction is very "oh no, it's not for me - I actually like men." We're talking about highly educated, proficient-in-3 languages, assertive women here, yet they've still somehow appropriated this misconception about feminism.

[Yes, there will be nothing in this thread making it clear that some 'feminists' hate men]

MitchiestInge - would it actually be completely unreasonable to nurture a little hatred of men-in-general-with-a-few-exceptions though, given that most horrible things in the world are usually their fault?

[Minge! You're not supposed to say it so openly!!]

dittany - I get called a man-hater. (smiley emoticon)
Feminists get called man-haters simply for pointing out what men as a group actually do.

Trillian - Msot individual men are just as good as most individual women.

[another credit to Astra there]

Mitchiest - If men don't want to be hated why do they give us so much ammunition?

dittany - worrying about man-hating boy hating is ridiculous when you look at what women and girls go through at the hands of men every day in this world.

[It is ridiculous to worry about man-hating because women suffer. at the hands of presumably all bastard men. don't lump my sons, brothers and father in with tht crap!]

Trillian - I disagree entirely. All hatred should be opposed. Anything that suggests that there is or should be a "battle" between the sexes is wrong.

[Trillian is the ONLY person on this site who is taking issue with the man-hating guff going down. Speaks volumes]

dittany - There isn't a battle between the sexes, there's a war on women and girls.Man-hatred doesn't exist. It's a figment of misogynists' minds created in order to disguise real woman-hatred which takes the form of rape, assault, battering, murder, forced marriage, femicide (100 million missing women and girls), womens second class status across the world.

[any man who thinks certain women hate all men is just covering up his own misogyny - brilliant logic! ]

Ormirian -"a deep rooted sense of female superiority"

Ooh where do you get one of those from? I think every woman should have one. To match the 'deep rooted sense of male superiority' that all men have.

[Yes, ALL men do have that, haw haw haw ffs]

Llyodegen - I agree with SardineQueen, all hatred is wrong. I worry as much about all the "little monster"/ smelly / lazy / useless stereotypes that get fed to boys as I do about all the revolting pink princess crap. The way we bring up boys and the way society sees them will have a direct impact on how they go onto relate to women / the world when they are men.

[agree completely L]

quirrelquarrel- But they definitely do exist... I came across these people on the Internet and otherwise they are so intelligent that I can't believe they produce this sort of rubbish. I doubt that it's tongue in cheek.

[me too q!]

dittany - "But they definitely do exist." Evidence?

[she's on trial now? how about believing shes not lying experiences? cue more 'no, i've never seen those type of women/femisnists, how strange, hahaha!]

*quirrel I haven't come across what you are talking about so some examples would be good.

*show us some links then Quirrelquarrel.

[like she is going to have every post from someone like that she's read saved somewhere.
'I've met some racists in my time...' 'evidence please or it never happened']

stopthewholworld -Here's a good quote.
'The truth is that women create the human race and it's women who have kept it going. Men have basically acted like parasites.'

SardineQ -I think that's from a thread on here isn't it stoptheworld? Not sure how it's evidence of an organised branch of man-hating feminism though.

[Er, if that comment wasn't met with fierce rebuttals on here - and i doubt it was very much, then THIS place would seem such an organized branch Sardine]

dollius -I have never met a "man-hating feminist". Am rapidly coming to conclusion that she is largely a myth.
ElephantsAndMiasmas -'The truth is that women create the human race and it's women who have kept it going. Men have basically acted like parasites.'

I don't remember this quote but I can imagine the context in which it would have made sense - if it had been on a thread about how sexism came into existence, for instance, where there was a lot of talk about how early societies worked.'

[Yes i'm sure in that context it would 'make sense' Even though thats not what it says. ie more excuses for man-bashing]

vesuvia - Some non-feminists hate some men.
Some anti-feminists hate some men.
Some feminists hate some men.
All misogynists hate all women

[True! but should read 'some feminists hate some men (about 99% of them]

MummyJerryJuice - Man-hating feminists is just another way in which to dismiss us.
[No, it's useful way of sorting out useful , rational feminists from ones who hate men. Plenty of people support feminism but think there are many feminists who just hate men]
MisterDarcy - 'The truth is that women create the human race and it's women who have kept it going. Men have basically acted like parasites.'

Whoever said that actually is a man-hater, surely?

[I bet you'll find they can't possibly be Mr D...]

E;lephants - No it isn't, that was just scientific error. This sounds like someone commenting on the fact that women have the children, generally look after the children, cultivate the food, cook the food and feed the children, care for sick people etc etc etc - most of the necessities of preserving life are fulfilled by women in most countries.

[Nobody says - yes, to be honest if someone says that they are clearly a man-hater. dittany boasts again about being called a man-hater. Nobody suggests this is a bad thing]

dittany - The day I beat up, rape or kill a man purely because he's male is the day you can call me a man-hater. Until then, fuck off.

(er, because thats how all men behave? No, I think I'll call you a man-hater now]

MummyBerryJuice - The more time I spend semi-lurking on here the more I respect what you have to say, dittany.

celadon - I heart dittany

[end of pt 1]

Aye robot ... If she can't do a test that is part of the job then tough shit. What right does she have to sue?

This was a test forming part of the requirement to be trained for having a specific front line role in a riot. She can allegedly do the rest of her job, just not one that requires you to actually wear the full riot kit which is bloody heavy and be able to do a specific role whilst wearing one. So what right does she have to sue? This is bloody pathetic.

Catmilk, you are mistaken. Did you just scan the thread for the "All men are rapists" quote, then sit back, arms folded, with a triumphant smile?

cookcleanerchaufferetc, it seems the Employment Tribunal agreed with her claim for indirect sex and age discrimination (which is not sex specific). Shall we wait to see the text of the claim and the ruling before taking the Mail's cherry picking journalism as gospel? And btw, up to £30, 000 could mean 50p. The issue of physical tests for jobs would make an excellent thread, if you want to start one.

This thread is bizarre.

If women really are so good and men are so awful, then why has the female police officer who could not achieve the required time for a shied training run as part of riot training throw her toys out the pram and is now suing the police for £30k? People like her give women a bad name. Instead of slating men as a whole, look at slating men and women based on individual people and their actions.

Well done to cat milk.

Women (over 30) got the vote 1919, women 21 1926. Labour govt 1924. Russian revolution 1917. 'Great Unrest' (loads of strikes etc) same era. The men who survived WW1 had armed training and the eg of Russia. What does this show? (Probably not culling was beneficial)

Going back to OP, I thought it was an excellent article-I usually think that Libby Purves sticks to common sense and I could agree with her assessment of 'We need to talk about Kevin'-a book you can look at from many different perspectives.-

MoreBeta wrote "actually we did sort of get half way there in WWI. ... elderly women 'maiden aunts' who had never married or had children simply because so many men were killed in WWI."

World War I was indeed an awful killing spree. Most of the estimates I've seen for the number of British men killed in World War I put the death toll at about 5 percent of the British male population, but as so many of those men would have been young and single, many women would have never married, as you describe.

I came late to the thread so I hope you people won't mind me going back a bit and addressing tangentially the issue of 'killing off 95% of the men to see what happens'.

It IS a horrible concept and I hope it was a joke but actually we did sort of get half way there in WWI. My mother told me once about the common phenomena she saw as a child just after WWII of seeing quite elderly women 'maiden aunts' who had never married or had children simply because so many men were killed in WWI. I think it happened more often in times past, when mass slaughter of large numbers of men was common in wars.

I also read somewhere that during WWII young unmarried women often deliberatley avoided forming relationships with men who had a high risk of dying (eg aircrew). It seems that at least in past times, men who survived or had a better chance of surviving were highly prized and competed over by women. Sort of what you would expect with a scarce resource but maybe shows men were not entirely viewed as a bad thing by women in the past.

I'm not sure what that proves and the fact that men caused the wars (OK I'll let that Helen of Troy off just this once ) probably undermines it but anyway just threw it in the pot.

Various comments on this page illustrate the benefits of all-women space, like the mixed group that talks about abstract issues like S&M empowering women instead of debating male violence against women; how we need to educate men to stop raping/dominating/ignoring/battering us; how man hating extremists should be ignored as they're counter productive. There are lots of books for men to educate themselves with. Who said S&M was easier to debate than VAW? Let me guess...Who defines 'man hating extremist'? If we habitually debate feminism with men, guess what's going to happen? Slutwalk, anyone?