'Man-hating feminism'

"Loads of the most privileged group (white relatively wealthy men) think that everything is going to the dogs as they don't have as much privilege as they used to. Men bemoan women going to pubs and drinking pints, they don't like women driving, it annoys them when women in their workplace have a baby.... Loads of stuff, little teeny tiny stuff that gives the game away."

Most men do not bemoan women going to pubs! This is ridiculous!

Meanwhile still no one has answered my challenge to just post the simple fact that yes, like woman-hating, man-hating does exist (contrary to what was said earlier)

Anyone? Anyone want to say 'look whatver rubbish catmilk might be saying, it's silly to say man-hating DOES NOT EXIST or that there are no women that just think of men as 'the enemy.'"

Because if you say this, you don't prove everything I say correct - obviously - but you may lose points with the power-poster extremists who are watching and will punish you later... ha.

"Referring to the missing women and girls in india/china?

I'm sure most men in the UK don't know about it / haven't thought about it / don't give it a second thought."

So offensive!

"Oh and most men support women's equal rights & opportunities 100% (in this country) are aware of the benefits they've inherited from the patriarchy"

Not in my experience.

Loads of the most privileged group (white relatively wealthy men) think that everything is going to the dogs as they don't have as much privilege as they used to. Men bemoan women going to pubs and drinking pints, they don't like women driving, it annoys them when women in their workplace have a baby.... Loads of stuff, little teeny tiny stuff that gives the game away.

Referring to the missing women and girls in india/china?

I'm sure most men in the UK don't know about it / haven't thought about it / don't give it a second thought.

I know that the ordinary men across the world are happy in their position of dominance. Or at least if they aren't happy, not unhappy enough to do anything about it.

The ordinary men in the UK have less visible power (unlike places like Afghanistan and Saudi) but it is there bubbling under the surface. Ordinary men in most countries don't even notice the privilege that they have, let alone act to change it. I am sure most men in Afghanistan are not horrible, they have just been raised in a society that sees women in a certain way and has certain rules for them and so for them it is normal. It's the same everywhere.

The point isn't that all individual men are horrible - obviously they aren't. But that society and power structures are in place so that all over the world men are in power over women and children and it's so pervasive that most people (men women and children) don't even notice.

" 99% of men (in this country, in the western word) find it sickening"

That's just not right though. Most of the men I know enjoy their position of privilege, most of them don't even realise that they hold privilege.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Go check what the 'it' in my sentence referred to, then come back and tell me men don't find that sickening.

Oh and most men support women's equal rights & opportunities 100% (in this country) are aware of the benefits they've inherited from the patriarchy. I don't have stats to back that up, just 42 years of experience.

What I wrote "Sparky, my view of the world, or the patriarchy is that we are controlled by a tiny group of rich white men. The average guy is not a part of it. The average guy supports womens rights, equality of opportunity, freedom etc. The average guy is pretty decent, no worse than the average woman"

All that celadon felt compelled to reply -
"To suggest that the patriarchy is only a tiny group of rich white men is unbelievable."

The evidence just keeps stacking up. The funny thing is, most of you don't realise when you are proving my point.

I haven't known men who shouted upsetting comments at women BTW, that bit came out wrong! Clearly there are lots of "ordinary" men who think this type of behaviour is funny though.

eg my DH works in a job which is "male", as do some of his friends. The wage for the job (as a "male" job) is much higher than market forces say it should be. Are him and his friends fighting for more pay for equivalent female roles, or shouting that they should get less money? Are they fuck.

" 99% of men (in this country, in the western word) find it sickening"

That's just not right though. Most of the men I know enjoy their position of privilege, most of them don't even realise that they hold privilege.

Even little things like porny pictures of women everywhere, thinking that shouting an upsetting comment at a woman is funny, being able to continue pretty much as if nothing has happened when they have children if that's what they want, enjoying elevated pay and prospects compared to equally able women, and so on and so on. Ordinary men do not rise up against these things.

"is it man-hating to point out that it's down to men and their hatred of women that 100 million girls and women are missing in India and China. Or is it woman-hating to hate women so much that you create a society where such a thing happens."

Yes, because saying its 'men' (not 'some men') that do that is not exactly true, women go along with it, and most importantly, ie the bit you won't address, 99% of men (in this country, in the western word) find it sickening. Yet you tar them all with the same brush - they are the enemy, it is clear in many of your posts, and is why you and your kind (that i am v familiar with, trust me) are no different to the men who hate all women because of bad experiences with a few.

"Man-hatred doesn't exist. When women start destroying, killing, abusing, raping and harming men and boys on the scale that men do to women, then it's reasonable to talk about it. Until then it isn't."

Classic man-hater LUDICROUS denial - 'man-hating doesn't exist'* and change of subject to, "well men (again, the whole gender) are much worse, so we can say what we like, shut up."

Oh and I'm going...if my exit is too long for you, there are plenty of other threads.

*Anyone want to agree with me that it obviously does? No one? My point proven again.

why I'm leaving

dittany - "You sneered at me for pointing out that a hundred million girls and women are missing in India and China, and claimed that pointing it out was "man-hating". Pointing out what men do to women sends you into a rage, but their actual harmful genocidal actions don't. Don't you think that's a bit messed up?

Aren't you in a rage that 100 million women and girls don't even have lives in India and China just because of their sex? If not why not?"

I wrote that the point is this thread is about feminist man-hating, not to be derailed/dismissed or shut-up with facts about missing girls in India and China, True, basic point, easy to comprehend - or you could just say I am ambivalent about genocide. FFS. That's the level of debate around here.

Sparky, my view of the world, or the patriarchy is that we are controlled by a tiny group of rich white men. The average guy is not a part of it. The average guy supports womens rights, equality of opportunity, freedom etc. The average guy is pretty decent, no worse than the average woman. Some here definitely agree with that, I'm sure.. But there's enough 'prime movers' here who will swarm any thread to drown out such thoughts. It was made crystal clear in my AIBU thread.

Catmilk - stop quoting me out of context.

We have discussed some ideas on this thread that are quite tricky to put into words. We have been trying to understand and explore these concepts. Quoting posters out of context is rude and unhelpful in the extreme, when people have tried hard to be precise in what they are saying.

I will not be responding to the inane remarks that you have put after quoting me out of context - there is no need to because the answer is in the original post. In other words, the answer is in the context that you have ignored.

I find posters who scan threads for snippets, that they can quote out of context, in order to name call, tiresome and extraordinarily rude BTW.

yes but Catmilk-youve just said that you agree its the patriarchy that is to blame.
it is.
but because of the patriarchy theres all this ladder of wrongness.
and because of this we need to look at all these aspects of this.
i dont read feminist books cos i dont understand them but i undersatand whats going on around me.
i do listen to what others have to say though-even though i dont always understand big words.the jist of it comes to me in the end.
i can get really revved up on some subjects-and this might seem that im man bashing-im not-its just a subject that is realy relivent to me.
i can get just as revved up about gun crime/drugs and our boys.
but in this-i can see relivence in what others say about diffrent things.
its all relivent i feel.

Thanks sparky, I agree with what you say, its the patriarchy thats to blame, most men like, love and support women. But I don't think enough members of this site see it that way at all. I have seen enough in my two weeks here (accused of being a man because I questioned boy (teen)-bashing, swarmed with attackers and only one person saying quit the boy-bashing - that raised a lot of suspicions. Checking out other threads, not just this one, confirmed wht i thought. Staying here would be just endless debates, with people who just throw strawmaen at you and say you support rape (happened to me)... Can't be bothered.

Also with that furore over the freakshow comment, it was clear that this place was full of too many stupid people. I'll try somewhere else ta.

Blimey.

Catmilk-please dont go.
you know what-when i first come here i didnt understand this place at all
and to be fair-when i first come here it was on a fight and i dont even want to think about my first several hundred posts.
but i realised that not only were we fighting the same thing-but it was ok to be angry.ive never allowed to be angry Catmilk!
i probably come across as man hating and middle class hating.
but i dont hate either-i just talk about things from my own posision in life
partly because i am angry[i hate wrongness]and partly in hope that i can make others understand-so hopefully helping others in my posision in life.
just because i do this dont mean i hate the middle class people on here-
i guess what im trying to say is-i feel that we bring our own perspective on here-but this is a good thing.and we do have common ground.
yeah-sometimes i feel like shouting"all men are bastards"-but this would be ridicccalas wouldnt it-theyre not-its the patriarchy that is a bastard.

[It's important to quote the list of feminsist man-hating quotes. Its a list that is easily found on the net. It contains some of the worst feminsist male-bashing, though is of course by no means definitive.It is ALWAYS met with the response 'some of those are out of context, or things a character said in a book']
Occasionally some women who will identify themselves as feminists, and who are sometimes held-up as the very essence of feminism will say or write something that gives credence to the idea that men-hating is apparent.

Fortunately most of the time such instances come from American sources, where a particularly extreme form of feminism resides. There are a few similar instances from the UK, but those are generally from feminists trying to emulate our American 'cousins'. The quotes though come from just a small minority of feminist writers and academics, notably Marilyn French, Catherine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin, who appear to have spent entire careers providing quotes for opponents of feminism to liberally (perhaps not the best word) employ whenever in a tight debating spot.

You will struggle to find similar quotes from beyond the white English-speaking world.

Of course most if not all of the quotes below could be simply taken out-of-context. I've read a few of the books mentioned in the past, and couldn't unfortunately find any such instance.

"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE."
Marilyn French (her emphasis)

'My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don't even need to shrug. I simply don't care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don't matter."
Marilyn French; The Woman's Room.

"All patriarchists exalt the home and family as sacred, demanding it remain inviolate from prying eyes. Men want privacy for their violations of women... All women learn in childhood that women as a sex are men's prey."
Marilyn French

"All men are rapists and that's all they are."
Marilyn French, Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."
Catherine MacKinnon

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it."
Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan.

"The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an eternity of being used."
Andrea Dworkin

"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual aberrations...obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is part of a concerted campaign."
Marilyn French

"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release."
Germaine Greer.

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience."
Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.

"Men renounce whatever they have in common with women so as to experience no commonality with women; and what is left...is one piece of flesh a few inches long, the penis. The penis is the man; the man is human; the penis signifies humanity."
Andrea Dworkin

"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."
Catherine MacKinnon (Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of Michigan, & Yale.)

"Man-hating is everywhere, but everywhere it is twisted and transformed, disguised, tranquilized, and qualified. It coexists, never peacefully, with the love, desire, respect, and need women also feel for men. Always man-hating is shadowed by its milder, more diplomatic and doubtful twin, ambivalence."
Judith Levine

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." -- Robin Morgan, MS. Magazine Editor

?I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.? ? Andrea Dworkin

?The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.? ? Sally Miller Gearhart

"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies." -- Andrea Dworkin

"Men love death. In everything they make, they hollow out a central place for death, let its rancid smell contaminate every dimension of whatever still survives. Men especially love murder. In art they celebrate it, and in life they commit it. They embrace murder as if life without it would be devoid of passion, meaning, and action, as if murder were solace, stilling their sobs as they mourn the emptiness and alienation of their lives."
-- Andrea Dworkin

"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist" -- Ti-Grace Atkinson

"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."
-- Catharine MacKinnon, quoted in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies.

"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males." --Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001.

"There are no boundaries between affectionate sex and slavery in (the male) world. Distinctions between pleasure and danger are academic; the dirty-laundrylist of 'sex acts'...includes rape, foot binding, fellatio, intercourse, auto eroticism, incest, anal intercourse, use and production of pornography, cunnilingus, sexual harassment, and murder."
-- Judith Levine; summarizing comment on the WAS document, (A southern Women's Writing Collective: Women Against Sex.)

From 'A feminist Dictionary; ed. Kramarae and Triechler, Pandora Press, 1985:

MALE:...represents a variant of or deviation from the category of female. The first males were mutants...the male sex represents a degeneration and deformity of the female.

MAN:...an obsolete life form... an ordinary creature who needs to be watched...a contradictory baby-man...

"Men's sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can 'reach WITHIN women to **/construct us from the inside out.' Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women's own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, 'even if she does not feel forced.'
-- Judith Levine, (explicating comment profiling prevailing misandry.)

[lets see how the members here respond]

Smalles likeTeenStrop - Meh, quote mining.

ditany - Oh I love it when we get people here quoting from MRA sites.
There are a lot of men who don't want women to have freedom or equality. They prefer the status quo.

[Not really, unless you mean worldwide maybe. no one challenges this man-bashing of course]

Mitchietsminge - I actually do think it would be a good idea to thin out the male population by culling about 95%. Just to see if it helps.
[Joke? Like how it would be vicious misogny if you reversed the sexes?]

dittany - 100 million missing women and girls in India and China because of male society's hatred of women.But instead let's get upset at some made-up out of context quotes from an MRA site

[Hey its a thread about man-hating feminism ditty!]

PrineHumpty - Where's that blog post where those quotes are put into context?

Beachcomber - Ah is this bit where an MRA quotes a bunch of women out of context as proof that women are quite angry about male violence?

sprogger - Oh bloody hell, I can't believe that already debunked list of quotes has been plonked up here AGAIN.

[for the record, some are easily debunked, some are as they seem - and never will any man-hater admit that any express hatred of men. It's astounding]

Prolesworth - So how about fucking the fuck off with your MRA copy and paste bullshit. Cheers.

MummyBeeryJuice - I see orsinian has not been back.(wonder why he thinks the women on here could so easily be shut-up)Thanks though for putting those quotes in context for those of us like me.

[all is well again - man with nasty proof is gone and proof has been explained away]

SpringChicken - So reading some quotes, in or out of context, by other feminists that I don't agree with isn't somehow enough to frighten me away from feminism andsend me scuttling back to don a pinny and fall at some man's feet begging for forgiveness.

[and neither should it. Its about accepting some of feminism has preached hatred of men. This is entirely denied by most, in spite of the evidence, despite it still continues - right here in this thread, unchallenged, while people claim it never happens!!]

dittany (poosinly the most obvious manhater here) - Dworkin, MacKinnon and French never hosted a rape orgy for the 100 top feminists where young men were shipped in to be fucked at will by whoever fancied it, and then had their bodies marked to show how often they had been used. D, M and F keeping of course the best male bodies for themselves marked with white arm bands.

Didn't happen. Men do things like that. And you can't even say invidual men in this case because it was a group effort that they all took part in.

Evil.

{nobody says anything about that being unfair to the non-mass rapey men like their dads or brothers...]

cladon - You know when I read that orgy link I found it shocking but not surprising

Oppenheimer -I'd like to make an admission, but there definitely is what could be described as some level of man-suspicion (not sure I'd call it hatred).

I'm a man and I've name changed but I've posted on the feminism board before. When I've been clear that I've been a man, I've had a lot of anger directed at me. When I've joined discussions where I've not given my gender (and therefore I think it was assumed I was a woman), and expressed similar views, the ire directed towards me disappeared. It was an interesting test.

Beachcomber - Feminist discussion spaces are often suspicious of men (if they even tolerate their presence that is) for a reason.

[Wait, i thought such 'man-suspicious' places didn't exist! Confused...]

JoanofArgos Perhaps if you're the sort of chap who prowls around feminist boards all cloak and dagger pretending to be a woman, you're the sort of chap who might annoy people anyway?

[Even got a mention of a dagger in the, top marks!]

[Loads more posts 'proving' why it was fine that oppenhemer encountered lots of man-suspicion when not revealing he was a male. Someone talks of opps 'male privilege, and how its like being white not black' and many posters go giddy with excitement, always loving that victim/minority status, bleurgh]

MoreBeta - I dont generally feel feminists are man haters but every political movement has a few extremists that are best ignored.

[another ultra-rare voice of sanity and honesty]

Trillian -Most men (and women) aren't actively seeking to put women down, they are just getting on with things as best as they can.

[more sense, too little too late!]