What is the feminist view on single sex education?

Qualifier - I recommend single sex schools for girls. I haven't really thought about the aspect for boys. Will read on with interest.

I went to a single sex grammar. Dd1(19) was at single sex comp where dd3 is in yr8. Dd2 chose a mixed comp. At the girls' school the teachers (male and female) treat them as young women, at the mixed comp the girls are treated as silly young things and the boys are treated as mates (from obs at parents' evenings and functions). The uniform for girls is ridiculously over-policed and seems to overshadow more important aspects. There's things that dd2 won't do because she'll 'look silly' in front of the boys. I don't think my views on feminism are compromised by whole-heartedly recommending single sex schools, but obviously only based on my own and my dds' experiences.

I said earlier that I think that things have chaged since my school days.

I think I want to qualify thatt statement. They certainly havechanged in practical terms - there are no longer official boys and girls subjects - the home economics/woodwork thing would not occur now. And all state schools have anti bullying policies, which include statements on sexist bullying and harrassment. So on the surface, there is now equallity. However, the issue remains that attitudes don't change as quickly as rules do, and it is easy for Heads to hide behind the surface improvement. So as ever the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

BelleDameSansMerci - I refused to do Home Economics too from a certain age!

I protested by screwing up all the pattern making cuts.

They did bring in much more rounded electives though like boating and so on.

And as for my little boy - I was asking in nursery the other week why he does not seem to be doing much art work and was told that boys don't tend to like doing artwork as much as girls! Livid, but kept my cool and said that I hope my boy surprises you.

I have booked a time to go back and meet with them - as I figured that I was not going to achieve anything by being too angry and this is the first time I have found them to say something sexist.

Girls' schools vary widely I think - some schools spontaneously develop huge peer pressure to dress glamourously and be thin, whilst in some the fashion is to be individual and strong-minded (shades of Life of Brian's "Yes, We Are All Individuals").

Theoretically the questions are "Is segregation acceptable in principle?" (the answer varies according to your flavour of feminism) and
"Does bringing up boys in an all-male environment perpetuate sexism in society?" especially where the boys in question are likely to end up running the country.

this is how I would relate it to feminism:

the feminist analysis explains why girls do better at single sex schools (and there is plenty of evidence that they do); 'mixed' schools are not necessarily equal, because boys have been conditioned from an early age to behave in a certain way and consider themselves superior, and teachers too (cf the thread the other day about the teacher telling the dd that girls are worse at Physics than boys - even though girls actually get better Physics A level results overall). So a mixed school can turn out to be a hostile environment for girls in a lot of ways, intellectually or in terms of sexual bullying.
Feminism has never had a problem with separatism in certain activities, indeed most feminists would consider all-female groups essential for consciousness-raising, or that the leadership of the feminist movement should be an all-female affair.
In an ideal post-gender society there would be no sense in girls' schools, indeed they would probably be a bad thing, but as feminism acknowledges, we are not there yet.

My own experience is that I went to a girls' school which I think did leave me very unprepared for the sexist environment I then entered at a male-dominated Oxbridge college. I then thrived in a non-sexist mixed environment for my Masters and then went to an all-women's college for my PhD which was heaven. But when I read threads about the shit some girls have had to put up with at school I feel very fortunate in having had these experiences of separation in my education.

I don't know if all-girls' school will be an option for my dd, probably not (would love to send her to The Mount), but one of the main things I will be looking at in choosing a secondary school for dd (even beyond 'do they teach Latin?' ) will be what sort of an environment it is for girls, do they stamp out sexist bullying, do they encourage girls to do maths and science, etc. Because it is absolutely clear that you can't take those things for granted.

I went to a single sex school and it was Catholic. In a weird way I felt the nuns were feminist in their own spooky way as apart from the pope and God they didn't have many males in their life (I assumed they all thought God was male because of the his holy father speak) ... and I got to challenge their beliefs often. I also remember one of the lay teachers telling me how she could not get a credit card / bank cards / loans when she was younger because she was female...

I would send my children to single sex schools, but also allow them to meet socially with different sexes.

One of the best things my school did - inadvertently - was give me a scholarship award where I got to meet other scholarship winners - I was in the minority as a female and I met loads of boys from very posh schools and who had this confidence that their schooling and financial advantage had instilled in them.

I realised very early on (mid-teens) that this was all conditioning and that where their parents had been able to afford to send them was actually very critical as they were all going onto University and going to get powerful roles etc etc etc.

It is fascinating, isn't it? I think the "more likely to use hedges, qualifiers and questioning intonations" finding goes some way to explaining why feminst spaces on the internet (in particular) are seen by some as aggressive and unfriendly. Many of the contributers in those spaces, including on MN, are less likely to use those conversational techniques.

I have no idea what the feminist position is on single sex education but am always interested in exploring this issue. I went to co-ed infants and juniors, one year in a co-ed comp, then an all-girls private seconday school until GCSE level, then co-ed grammar for sixth forum. Our family moved around a lot! My favourite school was the single-sex one and was the one in which I was most successful, although I have to recognise that other factors as well as the female exclusivity played a part, given that it was a small, private school in Ireland.

I think a major consideration is the discussion participation rate in a mixed sex setting and I found this article on a study at Harvard really interesting. It certainly reflects my experience of mixed groups, both in and out of an educational situation.

I am sorry that your school failed you so badly, redvelvet.

seeker I hope so... I'm also hoping Waterloo Road isn't any indication of reality

I think - as in many things - co-ed schools have changed for the better since our day. Or my day, certainly.

redvelvet that's pretty much my experience of a mixed school too although I think your experiences were worse than mine.

I was one of the "popular" girls but was also stridently anti-discrimination at the time. I bet I was a joy - I refused to do Home Economics on the basis that I was never going to be a housewife and the boys didn't have to do it; I made a huge fuss that the boys were allowed to do fencing in sport and we weren't (they changed that rule after giving some stupid excuse about not having the equipment for the girls); made another huge fuss about being allowed to wear trousers in the winter (they changed the rules so we could); etc.

I suspect I was a royal pain in the arse (nothing's changed) and I don't want my DD to have to fight like that. Why should she?

I'm with you on the "straight to the head" front. I'll be exactly the same. And, if we don't do it, nothing will ever change.

I'm not sure how single sex schools fit in with my construct of feminism, but I know I wish I'd gone to one.
The mixed comprehensive I went to was disgusting, girls were regularly sexually assaulted and if you complained to the teachers you were told it was "only a bit of fun" and that you ought to be "grateful for the attention".
Everything the girls did was through a male gaze, we had to do sport in tiny little skirts in freezing temperatures while they wore tracksuits. I was about an E cup at 15, couldn't buy a sports bra to fit me, and had to endure the humiliation of running the 400m in front of a pack of jeering boys. In class the popular girls were anxious to please the boys. The other girls didn't speak. One of my best friends from school got a PhD at 25, I had no idea she was so clever as she never said a word in class.

It will NOT be the school environment as experienced by my daughter. There is an all-girls state school a few miles away and I will apply for it. She probably won't get a place, I will be watching like a hawk for any signs of the things I experienced and the head teacher will wish they'd never been born if my DD comes home having been sexually assaulted at school.

Bloody hell, I don't think about it often these days but I'm still so angry about it. I think it's what made me dare to call myself a feminist at 18 in a mining town where feminist pretty much = untouchable.

"for" her own children, not "that"...

My DD is only 3.8 but I will definitely send her to an all girls school after Primary age. I went to a mixed school (albeit decades ago) but I truly believe that girls do much better academically and in areas of confidence in a single sex environment.

Having said that, my friend's DD (now 17) has suffered from some bullying at her single sex school and I think she would have been better in a mixed environment. I was bullied a little bit by girls at school but was sort of "looked after" by some of the boys when that happened. My friend's DD didn't have anyone when she was being picked on...

From a feminist perspective, I think it's "wrong" that we need to send our girls to single sex schools for them to get the same advantages that boys do and, while we continue to do so, things are unlikely to be forced to be changed (and it will need to be forced). So, as someone said earlier, do we sacrifice our daughters' advantages for our principles? I won't if I have the choice. I want her to have all the advantages I didn't have and then, perhaps, she will be stronger and able to make more of a difference in the world that her own children (should she have any) than I could.

I remember someone saying that the ideal is to send your daoughters to all girl's schools nad your sons to co-ed so they can be socialized by other people's daughters!

My dd is at an all girls's school (her choice). They do incredibly well academically, and are certaily given the message that they can achieve anything. Depressinlgly, though, the misogynist stereotypes are alive and well in this all girl environment, and the pressure to look good is as strong as it is in the mixed schools in the area.

And they have to put up with being called lesbians in the bus station. Which they are currently dealing with by pairing up and holding hands. Confuses the neanderthals no end!

Oh, and where we used to live it was the state schools that were single sex, we'd have had to go private in order to send them to the same school.

Both dh and I went to single sex secondary schools and we both decided it was definitely not something we wanted for our children. In the area of London we used to live in this would have been very difficult, and it is one of the reasons I was happy to move. Where we live now they don't have any single sex schools so it's not an issue anymore.

I'm sure there were lots of great things about my girls school, but I don't like the idea of segregation and want my children to go to the same school. One of the things I really didn't like about school was that we were (in later years anyway) all so desperate to hang out with boys that we spent time with some really fairly unpleasant lads (from the local all boys schools). I'd hope with less desperation we might have been a bit more picky!

I was amazed however when I went to a boys boarding school at sixth form at how incredibly immature and badly behaved the boys were. I don't remember at university thinking the girls from mixed schools were less opinionated than me, only that those (boys and girls) that had come straight from school were a bit naive.

There are some schools that are getting good results from part-segregation: the school is mixed but certain lessons are single sex, English being the main one. If I can find the report I'll post.

I went to a girl's school, started in Y9. I went to three schools before that - two in Y7 and a school for those out of education in Y8 because I wasn't in any state to go back into school at that point. Going to the girl's school at Y9 was the best thing for me.

There is a local girls school that I'd love to send my daughter to but it's private and I couldn't afford that. It goes from nursery to secondary. If there is a girl's school close enough when it's time to move school I may look for girl's schools for her.

The sad thing is girls do best in single sex school but boys need to be mixed!

I'm pro girls' schools and I do think that this fits with my identity as a feminist.

i dont think goin to a coed school automatically prepares you for dealing with mysogyny in adult life.