What is the feminist view on single sex education?

"I do not think all girls should go to girls schools at all. But I do think that in the current state of affairs most girls would benefit from it."

I respect that. I don't think I agree that most would benefit from it but that's just my personal opinion and I don't think there is sufficient evidence for it to be anything more than an opinion. It's not as if we can do a randomised trial (and certainly can't do a blinded trial! :o)

My observations of mixed sex schooling and then going into a male dominated work environment, is that although I never felt less intelligent than the men, they were so much more confident, assertive and able to "occupy space"...by which I mean physically dominate their environments. I always sit very closed in with legs together while the blokes had no problems sprawling about and basically "owning" their space. I've spent years trying to lay claim to the space in a room the way the men do.

For years I put this down to my very unconfident mother, but thinking back, all the girls said less, and made less noise, and simply occupied less space than the boys at school.

I don't really see why feminism needs a principle on 'what to do about mixed or single sex education post-patriarchy' because we're such a long way from getting there.
for now it has to be a 2-pronged attack, trying to make mixed education better and offering girls the best education possible via single sex if necessary.
I get the point about the essential contradiction of 'single sex for girls, co-ed for boys' but in practical terms it's not a problem because lots of people will always chose co-ed for their girls and single sex for their boys so it's not like co-ed education is in danger of dying out through lack of girls in the schools.

'By "doing better" you are only talking about exam grades here, I think.'

no, not at all -it's several things: more likely to take the non-stereotypically girly subjects like maths, physics, technology, etc; more likely to take leadership roles; more likely to talk more in class. I was looking at an Ofsted recently for a grammar school in an area we're thinking about moving into and it criticised some of the teachers quite strongly for allowing boys to dominate discussion and thus limit the girls' learning.
Of course it's exam grades as well though. 4 A grades may not be the be all and end all of education but if you had a girl who wanted to a be a doctor and needed those results it would matter a lot.

In reality, and for the majority of us, the separation of the sexes is only 5 years. In most cases, primary is mixed, 6th forms are mixed and HE is mixed. When I was 11 all secondaries in my area were single sex, both grammar and secondary modern.

This is a really interesting thread - particularly that so many people are enthusiastic about single sex education, which is not generally the case IME on mumsnet.

I went to a (not particularly academic) single sex girls comp, and found it a very supportive environment. Whenever I've said this in threads on here, I generally get jumped on, told how bitchy girls are, how girls 'have to learn to cope with boys', how girls' schools 'aren't preparing you for the real world' etc.

I think that actually, providing girls with a safe space where they can mature and get an education without having to deal with the sexist reality of the 'real world' can be really helpful. I felt that having had five years in which there was nothing to make me feel odd about speaking up in class/studying physics/hating sewing/etc it was much easier to say 'no, this is not right' when dealing with petty sexism at sixth form and beyond. (Or more usually, 'fuck off and die' or words to that effect )

Of course, it absolutely begs the question of single sex education for boys . . . I suppose that depends on whether the boys' schools also encourage and value cooking, home ec, sewing, and all the 'female' subjects, and encourage their pupils to value all human beings equally, et al - or whether they play to an ultra-masculine ethos (maybe more likely at public schools?)

Interesting! I have moved my DSs to a single sex prep, and chose the school partly because it had the caring ethos I wanted, and was small, but also partly because the girls in DS1's class at the local mixed primary were always top of the class. Three of them in particular were bright and very sure of themselves, very quick to put their hands up. The boys were starting to not bother trying, even the "clever" ones and I felt year 2 was a bit soon to give up on education. DS1 in particular has come on leaps and bounds this year, and I would say the smaller class sizes of the private sector is the real reason for this. But long term, I want him to have the male role models at school and to see boys can be clever. It is the feminisation of education that has played a part in this decision for me.

Open mind on whether single sex aged 13 + will be the right decision or not - that's when they next move school.

By "doing better" you are only talking about exam grades here, I think.

If we are coming up with a feminist principle we should be saying "if I ran the world everyone would do this". So if you believe that girls should go to girls-only schools, you are also saying that boys will all be going to boys-only schools. I think this would be more damaging to society (and worse for all women) than if all children went to mixed schools and we focussed on making those mixed schools better.

I thought girls did better than boys in all types of schools?

The feminist principle should be one that is best for all women. Even if you then go on to personally choose something else because it is (in the short term) better for you or for your daughters, the principle should be universal.

The question is: do we believe that single-sex schools are better for girls? And do we believe that single sex-schools are better for boys? If the answer is yes yes or no no then there is a clear answer. If the answer is yes for girls but no for boys then we have a problem.

(personally I don't like single sex schools but am happy to go along with the thought experiment assuming that girls "do better" in single sex schools)

it's the pragmatic versus ideal world scenario.
I see your logic Trillian but change takes time and if all the mixed schools near you happen to be shit for girls I don't think it is reasonable to say 'you must sacrifice your daughters' education'.
but I agree that working to make mixed schools more equal is an important thing for feminists to do, we should not ignore the issue and be all 'I'm alright Jack, my dd goes to a girls' school' about it.

"It seems to me that co-educational environments are mostly very unequal."

So we should be working to make those environments better, not taking our daughters out of them. There is more to life than getting 4 As at A-level.

If there is a feminist view on single sex education it must be a view that adds up. "What would happen if everyone did this?" The answer cannot be "put my daughters in single sex schools but sons in co-ed" because then what you are saying is that co-ed is not good enough for your daughters but it is good enough for other people's daughters. Not very feminist at all.

'isn't it critical that they actually spend time together?'

yes. But only if it doesn't compromise their education.
I grew up with no problems relating to boys (two brothers, did lots of mixed sex activities) but sexism came as a big shock.
however there were boys at my university who really couldn't talk to girls because they had been at boys' boarding schools and appeared to think girls were an alien species. That was part of the problem, I think.

"Petsonalities, ethos and cohort probably make a bigger difference than single or mixed." I definitely agree with this bedlambeast

I got that Dilys. It's still very depressing.

I didn't actually mean that boys in general would run the country, I was talking about Eton etc.

If we want boys and girls to understand each other and like each other and treat each other right (while realising that the other is not an alien species) isn't it critical that they actually spend time together?

""Does bringing up boys in an all-male environment perpetuate sexism in society?" especially where the boys in question are likely to end up running the country."

If it is the case that girls do better in a single sex environment (and it certainly is a possibility) - then the above statement is just wildly depressing, isn't it.

For the OP - I don't know if there is a single feminist stance. I went to a single sex school, although it was quite good as there was a boys school next door and we were all bussed in together, walked some of the way at the end together and could mix at breaktimes when we were older. That was a nice mix I think.

Whether it is better or not depends on the school I think. My school was very academic and offered a full range of subjects. There was no question about girls not doing physics and maths etc. OTOH a lot of my friends went to a highly academic religious school and not a single one of them did a maths or science A-Level. I know a lot of people who went there so it's a bit odd - there must have been something going on.