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What is the feminist view on single sex education?

165 replies

MummyBerryJuice · 14/05/2011 21:10

I was educated privately in South Africa at girls-only schools largely because my parents wanted me and my brother to be educated in a multiracial setting and during Apartheid state schools were segregated. I have always felt that this was an advantage to me and the other girls as we were under less pressure to conform to girly stereotypes I never experienced any of the commonly held prejudices such as 'girls are better at English and drama and boys are better at maths and physics' etc.

However, now that I am a mum myself and am thinking about the future education of my own children (who currently are only 16 months old and in utero Grin) I am starting to wonder whether the separation of sexes in education (admittedly not state - which is where our children will be going) is not just another way in which the patriarchy removes women from the mainstream?

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Bonsoir · 19/05/2011 17:22

No - on the contrary, firms are bending themselves backwards to retain women (no problems recruiting). The issue is that the lifestyle is one more men seem to enjoy and thrive in than women do. Much as more men enjoy football matches than women do!

Original poster
MummyBerryJuice · 19/05/2011 16:18

Does that have anything to do with the fact that the environment is such that is makes it pleasant for men to stay and women to go?

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Bonsoir · 19/05/2011 16:09

MummyBerryJuice - the only point that I care about is that the women I know who have left that sort of environment have done so willingly and have no regrets, and the men that have stayed have done so willingly and have no regrets.

Original poster
MummyBerryJuice · 19/05/2011 15:49

I know for a fact that stress has an impact on male fertility too. I wonder if there is research that show the relative impact of stress on male and female fertility? And whether it affects one sex more than the other.

I doubt that sort of research exists, but that would probably be a whole other thread.

Yes, grass is not always as green as it seems but, the type of prestigious, high-flying career you describe affects the men in too. All lifestyles come with their costs and benefits but, the crucial point here is, is the set-up such that it excludes women from it?

Men have children too, but they do not suddenly find, on fulfilling their procreative potential, that work is suddenly a more hostile environment for them, that their career is damaged by the mere fact of having had those children (despite continuing to work as hard after returning from parternity leave), no in fact for many men having children is a career boosting event.

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Bonsoir · 19/05/2011 14:24

Why is that a put down? It is a fact of life that the grass is not always as green as it might seem on the other side, and why not tell the story from the other side? So many women (on MN and elsewhere) lust after the power and riches of a prestigious career and fail to take account of the massive personal price of that career - and that that, rather than any "glass ceiling" is why women choose not to stay in certain professions.

SybilBeddows · 19/05/2011 14:21

"But those who haven't been there don't know!"

ah, a classic little Anna put-down!

Bonsoir · 19/05/2011 14:04

I think the thread has evolved into a wider discussion. I certainly don't think that women need less education than men - on the contrary, since women's lives are by nature more heterogeneous than those of men, they probably require more skills and education.

I have read research on the issue of loss of fertility among professional women, but many years ago (my own experience is quite old, now). Certainly it was an "open secret" among my colleagues and our networks (of MBA types, in those kinds of jobs, across the world) and we all knew which doctors to go to for Clomid and, if that failed, IVF. Though very few women colleagues of mine stuck it out - the price to pay for that kind of job seemed ludicrous to all but the most tortured sorts!

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MummyBerryJuice · 19/05/2011 13:59

That is very interesting. Is this borne our in research or is it anecdotal?

But even if it is shown unequivocally, I don't see why it would mean that girls should be treated or educated differently from boys, which is of course what this thread is about.

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Bonsoir · 19/05/2011 13:34

SybilBeddows - there is, unfortunately, nothing bizarre or unusual about it. The time and energy commitment of high powered global business is notorious in those circles for destroying the fertility of professional women. But those who haven't been there don't know!

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MummyBerryJuice · 19/05/2011 13:31

The fact that I can bear children and breastfeed them has nothing to do with my ability to learn, think, feel or reason, it also has nothing to do with the ability to reach my potential or my ambition. It makes no difference to my parental responsibilit.

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SybilBeddows · 19/05/2011 13:18

really? how bizarre.
what on earth do you think was causing it?

Bonsoir · 19/05/2011 13:15

half my female colleagues

Bonsoir · 19/05/2011 13:12

I found the fact that my fertility disappeared in the workplace, along with that of at least half my colleagues, fairly relevant and a significant gender difference.

SybilBeddows · 19/05/2011 11:56

and periods are relevant to sexual politics in the workplace? Do explain. Otherwise what you call 'fundamental' differences are what I would call 'irrelevant' differences. Women tend to have smaller heads too, and less facial hair, but it doesn't make any more difference than brown versus white skin in any profession I can think of.

Bonsoir · 19/05/2011 08:08

Oh right, so men have periods every month, can carry babies nine months through pregnancy and breastfeed them for years? So glad we've glad we've cleared up my misunderstanding that there are fundamental sex differences Smile

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MummyBerryJuice · 18/05/2011 22:32

I completely disagree with you Bonsoir, we are not fundamentally different at all and you could always say that gender is skin-colour blind.

Just as black skin is able to withstand longer and higher levels of light exposure and is therefore different from white skin a black is not 'fundamentally' different from a white person.

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Penthesileia · 18/05/2011 21:45

Bonsoir: what you wrote, and the manner in which you posted on this thread, could be construed in a number of ways. I simply wished to understand which interpretation I should follow. That's clear now.

Bonsoir · 18/05/2011 18:10

MummyBerryJuice - sexual politics will always exist, should exist and, IMO, should be actively discussed because men and women are fundamentally different and complementary. Whereas skin colour is a physical feature that is gender-blind and makes not one jot of difference to life potential, all other things being equal.

Bonsoir · 18/05/2011 18:05

Penthe - I didn't imply anything and didn't mean anything other than what I wrote. What is it with implications today?

camaleon · 18/05/2011 15:02

Segregation scares me in any shape or form. Segregation on the grounds of sex sounds like Adam and Eve and the temptation with the apple. Has huge religious/repressive connotations in my head, and I would not consider single sex education for my own kids (unless, that is, they insisted very very very much on it and we had to have that discussion in the future). Is it linked to sexuality? Do we place gay/lesbian/transsexuals in different groups?

And statistics do not convince me. Evidence of single sex education working better, may only reveal the inequalities we live with. I would prefer to change that, so in the future, no child would do better or worse depending on the sex of their peers.

Original poster
MummyBerryJuice · 18/05/2011 13:46

Do you think so, Bonsoir? why?

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Penthesileia · 18/05/2011 13:27

Bonsoir. Did you mean to say something like: "I got a First (starred First) and was never faced with the threat of, etc."? Or did you mean to imply what MummyBerryJuice suggested? I would be grateful if you would clear that up! I assume you did not mean that, but it is unclear.

Bonsoir · 18/05/2011 13:19

"I do think that if you took a step back and replaced 'women' with 'black people' you may have a different perspective on what you said."

I don't think that easy parallels can be drawn between sexual politics and racial politics. Sexual politics will always exist, and, crucially, should exist.

Bonsoir · 18/05/2011 13:15

Penthe asked me for my experience so I gave it.

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MummyBerryJuice · 18/05/2011 13:10

I'm sure you don't mean it this way Bonsoir but in the above post you just implied that Penthe got her first because she allowed herself to be groped/sexually harassed.

I do think that if you took a step back and replaced 'women' with 'black people' you may have a different perspective on what you said.

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