Ways the TV series 'Friends' was anti-feminist

SATC thread here C'mon, I used the word archetype in my op

I think we need a whole thread about Sex and the City! In fact I am going to start one...

And Andy, Toby's ex wife, having his babies on her own, and facing down the criticism when she gets PG while in office.

The West Wing is male dominated, naturally, but does have a lot of strong female characters, CJ Cregg becomes Chief of Staff and makes a big deal when the administration do a deal with a repressive middle eastern country, Ainsley Hayes is v smart, the politics are very liberal and pro choice.

The Good Wife is my current favourite show however I would not hold it up as pro-feminist.

Its hard to say without spoilers but in general the women are shown as extremely cold or manipulative, very materialistic, and as poor parenting models.

The Good Wife is an interesting study from a feminist perspective ( I think someone mentioned it earlier). Have only watched the first series, so please no spoilers!

I think it's massively important to have these kind of discussions about popular culture. I get a bit bogged down in literary criticism stuff because of the terminology, but looking at these kind of shows is an easy way in to how themes are reflective of society and reflected back as reinforcement.

When I was training as a midwife we were actually shown the clip from the Carol/Ross breastmilk thing at college.

As I recall we discussed it as an example of examples of attitudes to brestfeeding and the media helping to increase awareness - there is a lot of silly disgust about the tasting milk thing, and daft questions, but in all the whole scene is actually illustrating how normal breastfeeding is, despite the uninformed attitudes of bystanders.

Jennifer aniston has stated she lost two stone to get the role and then has gone on to lose a further stone or so as Hollywood actresses have got thinner.

Actually I'd like to throw out a challenge - which series's (drama or comedy) do you think shows a pro-feminist stance?

But Friends was never about holding the characters up to ridicule - they were thin, rich, pretty, lived in amazing apartments.....

The Little Women thing bugged me too!

The parenting thing is hard because it is expensive and difficult to have child actors in tv so is easier for them to fade into the background. At least Carol and Rachel breast fed!

Is it to make fun of the behaviour though?

It's a bit like Alf Garnett I suppose isn't it. Holding him up to ridicule but then finding that half the audience identified with him and agreed with his rants.

'A lot of the criticism aimed at each plot line fails to take into account that the point of the plot line is to show it as ridiculous, to show the behaviour of the character as immature.' agree with this, that's what I was thinking but didn't know how to say. However this thread has pointed out some stuff that is pretty ingrained. However the whole show is based around stereotypes really, not just antifeminist stuff.

This thread is great and in particular really tallies with how I felt about the 'buying a baby from a stupid, poor woman' storyline.

I love pretty much anything like this sort of discussion about pop culture.

Interesting thread.

I think some of the stuff isn't portrayed as bad as it seems. E.g. In the breastmilk one Ross is derided for being so squeamish about it. But, feminism aside, it always amazed me how horrible they could be to each other, especially the women. When I was younger I used to feel jealous that i didn't have friendships that close where I could 'banter' with my friends. But later I realised they were just nasty!

I do love it, and it was completely iconic of the turn of the millennium, and definitely influenced pop culture, as well as comedy since then. But I won't think of it the same way again

Yes, Good Wives - is what I meant. Most films have her dying in Little Women, but she doesn't!

It is encompassed in one of the posts above, elli

Yes, SB is absolutely right. Beth dies in Good Wives not Little Women.

As you were.

She does die in Good Wives, but they aren't exactly wrong either:

" The first volume Little Women was an immediate commercial and critical success, prompting the composition of the book's second volume titled Good Wives, which was successful as well. The publication of the book as a single volume first occurred in 1880 and was titled Little Woman." Wikipedia

I need SoH's 'On A Break' rant please.

I'm sure you find ant-feminist things anywhere if you look hard enough. A lot of these don't seem right imo

• The women are unhealthily skinny- *Never thought of them as unhealthy but kind of agree on this one, esp Jennifer Aniston
• The 'fat Monica' running joke- yes but wasn't there Brad Pitt as a previously fat man or is this not the same?
• Joey's womanising- Phoebes manising before Mike is equally accepted
• Phoebe being used as a womb for hire- She did it for her brother, not sure whats wrong with this, wasn't Joey a sperm donor
• Monica was riddiculed for dating someone 7 years younger than her but it was ok for Ross to date someone 10 years younger then him- Ross was ridiculed for going out with Elizabeth and the only reason he wasn't fired was because he saw Bruce Willis dancing in the mirror! Monica was also dating a teenager where as Ross was dating an adult. Frank and Alison's relationship was initially questioned but eventually accepted despite age gap.
• All the girls' desire to get married (especially Monica's bridzillaness), as opposed to the boys- What about Ross' desire to get married. Also doesn't Phoebe have a lot of doubts
• the anti-single mother rant Monica had at her wedding- don't remember this may have to look it up
• Rachel's birth was very medicalised and disempowering (but in context of USA healthcare system I suppose)- Not sure I'd go as far as to say disempowering, perhaps she wanted a very medicalised birth
• Chandler having to be 'taught' how to have a relationship- Don't a lot of his relationship problems stem from his parents divorce?
• Monicas getting slagged off for having 'lots' of lovers- I think she gets mocked a bit (as does Joey) but not 'slagged off', again what about Phoebe's relationships
• In the episode where Rachel, Phoebe and Joey make an issue of earning less than the others no-one mentions the gender split- Is there a gender spilt in this situation, there are other factors, Rachel just moving to the city, Joey's choice of profession, Phoebe's chaotic early life/lack of education
• They do quite gender-specific jobs, Monica/cooking, Joey/acting (which is 2/3 male), Ross/Paleontologist, Phoebe/massuese, Rachel/waitress/fashion buyer, Chandler/IT(?)- Again other factors, and Chef I would say is male dominated
• they get a stripper for a stag do then glamourise it by her saying how well she is paid- don't remember this, wasn't there also a male stripper?
• Ross's homophobia and his lack of equal parenting of his child- I wouldn't say that he is homophobic but uncomfortable because of his own issues with his masculinity (which he admits to Sandy the nanny come from his Dad). His uncomfortableness about Susan and Carol came from the fact she was his ex-wife.
• Monica's obsession with cleaning- Is shown as an obsession not a norm for women
• the rich Monica and Chandler adopting the babies of someone too poor to keep them herself- Wasn't she also v young, and they weren't that rich
• Chandler pretending to watch tv so he doesn't have to do his fair share of the thanksgiving cooking- He hates thanksgiving because of his parents divorce and him throwing it up as a child, he doesn't want to be in the same room as thanksgiving stuff! Phoebe doesn't want to help either but Will does I think.
• The football game where Rachel is a 'useless' girl, Phoebe flashes her breasts to win a point and Monica is ridiculed for being as competitive as the boys- Chandler is also useless and Ross is mocked for being competitive. The other boys aren't really competitive, its a Geller thing

A lot of the criticism aimed at each plot line fails to take into account that the point of the plot line is to show it as ridiculous, to show the behaviour of the character as immature.

For example Ross ends up walking Carol down the aisle, persuading her to marry Susan and ridiculing the homophobia of her parents. His character is usually the one to be shown to exhibit maturity and to show reflection and growth.

The immaturity and behaviour of a group of 20 somethings is shown to great effect and their success as individuals is reasonably well accomplished by the end of the series.

Showing a character do something stupid and then grow from it is the most used plot device in friends.

I am very saddened by the sexual harassment experienced by the writer on the show that Dittany posted, that's really dreadful.
Given the immaturity of what she describes I'm surprised they ended up with such a well written show. Perhaps Kaufman had a lot to do with that.

I think she dies in Good Wives rather than Little Women?

Joan...Yes she does! She dies....