Ways the TV series 'Friends' was anti-feminist

Swiper-On the normalisation- have you been away with bin laden for 10 years or has the Civil Partnership Act and the rise of surrogacy passed you by?

Those things still aren't considered, to use your terminology, 'normal' though, are they?

I would engage with you further but your staggering rudeness prevents it.

Enjoy your monologue

I thought Monica had OCD.

Re the cleaning thing - I've heard more than one man refer to their partner as "Monica" for having perfectly normal views on cleanliness and hygeine. And I mean even normal for me and I am very chilled about these things.

dittany, yes that story is shocking, although having worked in a few male dominated environments, I am maybe more weary than shocked. Of course, this kind of behaviour is a) why so much sexist crap gets through on tv and film and b) why the whole "there's nothing to stop women being car mechanics/oil rig workers/construction workers/other male dominated activity" is a load of crap. Who the fuck wants to deal with that on a daily basis AND deal with the usual work-related stresses?

No, it was her inhospitable womb!

Another thing: the way in which the female characters go loopy when pregnant. They have unreasonable cravings, desires, irritations, and are utterly irrational and unpredicatable.

AFAIR, Monica couldn't have children because both she and Chandler had fertility problems. Age was never mentioned as being the problem.

I am shocked Dittany and I expressed it earlier, though I'm sure it is common in the writers room as it is in every profession.

Monica's cleaning is normalised because it's viewed as mildly annoying but not mental: hence Chandler saying 'you;re gonna put sweats on and clean, aren't you?' .... it's a thing that's expected, that's her quirky little girly way.

I haven't seen any anti-feminists on this thread

I know I'm a feminist but there's no or anything.

It's a discussion in the feminist topic, I'm sure there are plenty of feminists here who are interested in the discussion.

Great.

Can we return to your point, then, that by showing something on a TV show you normalise it?

Because, as I've said, there were lots of things on Friends that haven't been normalised. So how can you claim the Monica-cleaning thing as anti-women?

Darlene wants to talk about the ways in which Friends is anti-feminist - not whether or not it is. It's a space to interrogate and explore those aspects of the show: lots of us obviously still found enough parts of it funny to keep watching! That;s not the issue.

Darlene, Darlene, Darlene, oops didn't expect that reaction

I think its quite shocking that you don't want to have a discussion about the issues you raise in your OP. You say that you didn't start this to have a debate and you say that 'It just is'. Seems a bit silly and unfair imo. This is a discussion forum, you are allowed to discuss things. Or so I thought until I came here. This is my first time on a feminist mn thread and I'm not sure if I'll come back, may have an explore though. You are right I am quite ignorant about feminist issues but how am I going to learn when I am not allowed to discuss things but am just told that Darlene O'Connor's word is law and we should all just agree with her? Surely thats not feminism?

If its anything its DarleneO'Connorism, and thats not going to be such a hit I don't think

I don't think I agree with Darlene about Monica's cleaning obsession either.

OMG is everyone going to get confused, 2 feminists disagreeing with each other? Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh, watch the heads exploding!

• Chandler having to be 'taught' how to have a relationship- Don't a lot of his relationship problems stem from his parents divorce? [yes, blame the mother parents ]

Seriously? Someone says blame the parents and you hear blame the mother? That is YOUR interpretation. And from what I can remember of friends the parent bashing on Chandler's part seems to be focused on his father.

No, the first rule of the feminism topic is that we will discuss things from a feminist perspective. People coming on giving the usual, bog-standard non-feminist view, will be given short shrift because as Darlene so rightly points out, we can read that everhwhere else on t'internet and in the media. People asking questions is fine. People telling us to STFU and stop analysing stuff from a feminist perspective, FGS can't we give it a rest, can fuck the fuck off.

For example, this really makes no sense in the context of the thread:

• Monica's obsession with cleaning- Is shown as an obsession not a norm for women [by having it on a tv show it normalises it]

By that token, if having it on a TV show normalises it then it's normal for:

• a woman to leave her husband when pregnant and raise her child with another woman;
• a woman to be a surrogate to her long-lost brother's children;
• a man to say the name of the wrong woman at his wedding ceremony.

None of those things are seen as normal or typical. Friends hasn't normalised things - why on earth would you claim that it has?

You know the first rule of Fight Club is you do NOT talk about Fight Club?

The first rule of the Feminism Topic is that you do NOT disagree with the feminists. I learnt that a long time ago, which is why I mostly lurk these days.

Actually Darlene, I think you've raised an interesting series of points, but you could give a little here. I agree with most of what you've said, but not all of it, and I don't see why you should get carte blanche here just because you've told people they should fuck off if they don't agree with you.

I think most people are saying, yes, it is pretty anti feminist. I thought about friends a few weeks ago after all the porn threads and it struck me then how normalised porn was in the show.

BUT - you need to accept that some of your points aren't black and white - your dogged determination that no, a fictional character was infertile because of her AGE, she's fictional, no one knows. You can't just decide that she had a certain condition because of x, y and z.

Why not let people discuss things, instead of TELLING people that it's exactly the way you interpreted it?

darleneoconnor you seem to be talking me out of agreeing with you with your last post. I see lots of unfeminist stances in Friends but you are going too far IMO.

And you really cannot dictate what people talk about in a thread. It's a shame that you don't invite discussion because discussing a programme that so many people have seen can help open eyes to things they may not have noticed before. But refusing to 'allow' other opinions will make them leave the thread, and that chance is lost.

"All we want is this tiny corner of cyberspace where we are free to express our feminst opinions without constantly being interupted and having to justify our existence."

Excuse me but there are dedicated Feminist Forums, why shouldn't other Mumsnet members join the debate? I don't always check the section before I join in a thread and neither should I. I resent being told to "Fuck off" if I don't instantly agree.

Laurie, I agree, it was just one that I have watched recently that I didn't switch off because I couldn't get past the meh-ness of the female stereotypes. Although that is pretty much confined to Alicia but I love the fact that the character is complex and that is a rare thing to see on tv in a female part. Even in The Wire, which had some great female roles, those characters are not nearly as developed as some of the male ones.

I am mindful of not falling into the trap of expecting a level of perfection in women that I would not expect from men and that goes for fictional ones as well as real life. A bit like the "can you be a feminist if you shave your legs?" question.

ER was good for strong female roles with only a little sterotyping.