"guys" - an acceptable form of address for women?

I don't think it's a bout being 'cross about the past' I think it is about reflecting on the present. I use 'guys' in casual conversation in a similar way that you do, but just because I use it in a gender neutral way doesn't mean it is a gender neutral term - it is an informal term for a boy or man. So when I address a mixed group I am in effect either pretending the women are men, or ignoring them. And neither are good. So I think to myself I should use a different term really.

Not a huge thing as these things go, but the little things do matter in changing culture.

Oh and personally I pretty much always wear trousers, but I do think it is a problem that when men occasionally wear skirts they get a whole load of grief essentially because they are seen as emulating women, and that is seen as bad (the sub text being that women are inferior).

well there could be a point in being cross about the past but really I think that's a separate issue. Sorry my first sentence in the below post doesn't make sense, I hope it is comprehensible what I'm on about all the same.

But Nooka, (leaving aside the 'victim' arguments, I dont really want to get into that) surely if it is wrong that women are not able to wear trousers in other countries or were not in other times is pretty irrelevant.

We can't do much about those things, and we certainly can't improve their lot by boycotting trousers ourselves.

Life goes on and we should wear, and say, what fits the moment and the activity.

I see the word 'Guys' as a generic term for several people you are on good terms with - not men, not women. It's just a generally good and useful term. It may have evolved from a term addressing only men but so what - words do evolve - it doesn't mean it still has a masculine bias, though it retains a notion of that still. Only time can sort that and therefore I think the more we use it for women as well as men or mixed groups, the better.

Think forwards not backwards. There's no point being cross about the past. Let's focus on the future and make the words mean what we want them to mean.

Why on earth should it be considered that pondering if there are better words to use than 'guys' and why few female terms have gone into wider use has anything to do with thinking like a victim?

Oh and I call feminist bingo.

Not sure about the trouser argument. There are countries where men don't wear trousers and do physical work, and many where women do the majority of work (esp thinking subsistence farming) in very restrictive clothes. I see from a bit of Googling that the theory is that women started to wear their husbands trousers during WWII for industrial work because their husbands were away and to save clothes vouchers. That seems quite likely, but women had been working in factories for a considerable time before that.

'as' a victim obviously

seeker I think you are unbelievably patronizing to women. Stop thinking about yourself a victim fgs.

I am from a family where women held positions of authority for 4 generations. My greatgrandmother and her dsis were running a field hospital during WWI as doctors. My dm was an obgyn and running a clinic in the 50-70s, my mum was an military radio-engineer, she graduated from a super tech uni and being one of the only females at her degree. They had to endure real discrimination on the workplace and at home from their dps (my df, dgds etc and I remember this).

And you are upset because a word used to address a group of females 'comes' from a 'male' world? Get a grip.

Also because men were traditionallly predominant it is only natural that they have more words than us and the words were more widely known and used. Thus when things equalled out slightly these words got subsumed into the egalitarian language.

Like trousers - men did more physical work, therefore trousers were useful to them while women didn't need trousers so badly. So, now it's more equal are we to refuse to wear trousers just because they used to be exclusively male dress?

It's just cutting your nose off to spite your face - you can't change the fact it used to be unequal.

But seeker, you didn't address my trouser question and I'd be really interested in your (and others') response to that.

I agree that it has become gender neutral, and as i said, i use it all the time. I'm just a little unhappy that the only words that become gender neutral are traditionaly masculine ones. i can't think of a single word that used to apply only to women that now applies to both genders.

I've always used 'guys' in a gender neutral sort of way until a thread here got me thinking about it. I still use it a bit though as nothing else comes very naturally. Most often when coming home and saying 'hi' to my children, or in informal emails to small groups I know well. Thinking about tit the alternatives I use tend to be 'everyone' 'people' or 'all'. I wouldn't use 'girls/boys or 'ladies/gentlemen' except in situations where a heavy amount of irony was required.

Turkeyboots - I thought it was ladles and jellyspoons

I would really hate some one coming into our office and calling is all 'my lovlies' sounds a bit creepy in 'a league of gentlemen' way it something out of 'little briton'

Anyway I prefer the way me and my mates greet each other (despite the cats bums face from folks on here) than the way the fellows go st work! Now that would upset people here!

It's fiiiiiine

My mother calls her work team 'chaps'. She is quite jolly-hockeysticks though - not everyone could get away with it

balia 'Ladies' for me is nothing more sinister than a formal address to a group of women. I am a foreigner with 20years in the UK though.

Age related, I think - have just asked DD (16) as far as she is concerned, 'guys' is gender neutral. I'd go with colleagues in a formal work situation, though.

Am a bit about the idea that 'ladies' doesn't have any other association/connotation apart from group of women. What about 'ladylike' and phrases like 'she eats like a lady', 'my lady wife' not to mention the overtones of social position, depending on the status of one's husband, of course...

What Don'tdoitkate said. Guys pisses me off.("Ladies" makes me flinch and "here come the girls" in the boots ad, don't get me started)
We (DH, myself and two Ds's) are often addressed in restaurants as "Guys" and it really pisses me off. I never say anything (my cat's bum expression probably says it all), but oldest Ds has started piping up with a grin on his face, "Mum doesn't like being called a guy, she's a woman".

I like to tell myself I am bringing up a nice couple of male feminists.

My sister went to an Irish all girls school and nearly fell over in horror when the (female) Head teacher referred to a whole school assembly as "lads".

I use "everyone" normally, but "ladles and gentlespoons" when feeling silly.

I often call any group of friends who I'm with at the time guys. Doesn't matter if they're all men, all women or mixed. I don't even see it as having a gender. It has genuinely never occurred to me that anyone (youngish) would find it offensive.

"Guys" is too colloquial for a formal/professional address, but I would not hesitate to use it for my friends. I would be happy to use "Ladies" also (more of a joking than formal undertone).

For more formal crowd I would use "Ladies" or "Colleagues". If the group to address consisted of men, then "Gentlemen".

Agree that 'guys' is the equivalent of calling everyone 'he' and claiming women are included. Never thought about it properly before, but language does have connotations for how things are perceived, soI will stop using 'guys' to talk to my class. I do get offended by 'chicks' or bird or anything for the same reasons colditz gave..

My most common form of address to my class is 'you horrible lot'. Friends would address as 'you lot'.

I use "My Lovelies" of all groups, male female mixed.