woman arrested for harming unborn child.

Well if she wasn't suicidal the poor women might be now

DH works in forensic Psychiatry (nurse not trickcylist) and many women here end up in psych instead of prison. Under the DSM it seems easier to diagnose women with mental illness than men. I wonder why?

I don't quite understand where we disagree. You talk about there being legal provision for if someone targets an unborn child, which is exactly what I was talking about garlicbutter. I was specifically talking about a viable baby (hence heavily pregnant) and the UK legislation and did talk about the difficulty of reconciling that with the fact that clearly suicide should not be a crime.

There is a tension there though, isn't thre. Do you automatically exempt the mother from our legislation - which perhaps is the way forward.

Ribena, I simply can't agree with you about the OP story. If the concept had any validity at all, it would make suicide a possible crime for a wman - but not for a man. That automatically affords unequal rights, at the very fundamental level of rights over one's own life.

While I take your point about how you'd feel if someone killed your baby in utero, this principle couldn't be logically taken forwards because of the possibility that a woman may or may not be pregnant. It's thankfully rare that an agressor deliberately targets the unborn child (in civilian life, this is sometimes attempted by a partner) and there are legal provisions for it.

Your argument goes to the heart of the abortion debate: if it's murder to kill an unborn child, then abortion is murder ...

I've just read SGB's Bobby Franklin link. Dear god. He reckons any woman who miscarries is guilty of murder, unless she can prove her 'innocence'? I'd be laughing, if this dangerous fool weren't in a position of great influence.

Sounds like the only way for a woman to escape the risk of a death sentance would be to remain a virgin ... oh, but hang on, he reckons women are guilty of their own rapes, too, doesn't he? All he's got to do now is propose that women who don't get pregnant get the death sentance, too, and his circle will be complete. Or would be, if this lunacy ever became law.

I struggle with this one. Regardless of the legality of abortion, I do feel that if someone stabbed me in the stomach whilst heavily pregnant, and I survived but the baby (and to me, with a wanted, viable feotus, it would be a baby) died, there would still have been effectively a murder. I would be distraught at the thought that the worst charge would be attempted murder towards me, not the actual killing of the baby. And of course, the act only applies from viability.

OTOH, the charging of this woman is so clearly wrongly. She was obviously in great mental distress. It is wrong to suggeset that she was obliged to live 'for the sake of' her future child, because it does imply we're just incubators. I don't know how you reconcile those two things, except that, as far as I'm aware, our Crown Prosectuion wouldn't charge in those types of circumstances. It's a very rarely used law. That doesn't address the underlying issue though.

SGM, countries should own their misogyny. The UK, Japan, the US, wherever. We have the right call it for what it is. People are happy saying Arab countries have barbaric practices, what's so different when it comes to the US.
Different countries have different cultural traits, otherwise ALL countries and cultures would be the same.
It's not AMerican bashing to point out that THAT particular culture has a huge RIght wing anti-woman religious lobby.
Violence against women is extremely high in the UK, you have a right, in that context, to say that British men are violent.
Pick any culture you like, the misogyny will manifest itself in the ways specific to that culture.
We're not talking about individuals, we're talking about cultural practices.

I eventually managed to see your link, StuckInTheMiddleWithYou. I find it distressing. That woman was desperate, she did something according to how she felt at that time (being abandoned by the father of her child and in a fragile state of mind). She needs serious help on so many levels.

Thank you for the link SpringChickenGoldBrass, this man is an elected representative, therefore voted in to represent the views of the people. America is still a democratic country, isn't it?

I would assume that he has at least has some support, probably from white, middle class, right wing, pro life MEN.

I don't dislike Americans as individuals, I have several american friends and teach an american child for a few weeks every year. What I do dislike is the fact that American law and politics is overwhelmingly right wing and although meant to be secular is disproportionately headed up by quite radical christians.

Only in America could a pastor claim the support of others to burn the Quran. Only in America would you find young teenage girls bullying other women and making a villain out of any women who opts to have an abortion.

This is awful I feel for that woman

Gorionine: I don;t think that screaming nutjob actually managed to get the law passed but he keeps trying. This is a man who hates women so much he shouldn't be free to walk the streets. He also proposed that rape victims should be legally renamed as rape accusers because calling them victims prejudiced the jury. It was only rape/domestic violenc/sexual assault that he wanted this new law to apply to ie only stuff that happened to women.

I could not open the OP's link .

SGB your link is actually really scary, A women could face death penalty if she has a micarage? please please please tell me that as usual I totally misunderstood the article!

I agree with SGM about stereptype, never adds anything to an argument.

sakura: why do you think the Child Destruction Act is chilling?

horrible horrible story. I hope this woman gets the help she needs so desperately

The idea that this woman-hating fucking maniac is not just allowed to walk the streets but is elected to public office is really very frightening indeed.

It's worse than that.

I do agree a little bit sakura, there was an american woman on another thread that got arsey because someone dared to criticise a food she enjoyed as a child. Yeah well I like shepherds pie, I'm not gonna get arsey if someone else calls it the devils food though .

I don't really get the whole foetocide thing whilst abortion exists, that's the way the whole pro-life movement wants me to think I imagine, with the bent towards outawing abortion.

Handmaid's Tale here we come if this idea ever gathers traction. I like America, I imagine most people are moderate, however the whole religion and patriotism thing does seem to have a hold of the less nimble of mind.

That child destruction act is chilling. What does it matter if there's a baby inside her if she's been killed anyway? It's because some other man's progeny has been killed as well isn't it making the crime MUCH worse.

OTOH if there's one thing Americans hate it's having their country criticized, so if they would see how they're viewed for the barbaric practices that go on in their country then it might make the men running the show stop and think. Trying to show them that women are human definitely ain't going to work.