Looking for support and inspiration - DP says feminism is 'totally outdated'

People I know who have had cosmetic surgery are happier because it changes how they see themselves ie they prefer their own reflection in the mirror without that bump on their nose or wonky ears. If your argument held, people wouldn't bother to get dressed and made up if they were at home on their own. But they do!

But bonsoir, it only makes people happy because it changes how other people see them (with a few exceptions e.g. Breast reduction surgery). If less of a price was put on looks then these people wouldn't feel the need for surgery.

And why would having a nose job make someone happier? Because somewhere along the line society has deemed a small/pert/button nose to be more attractive. And these aren't inherent factors, you only have to look and see how the fashion for body shape has changed over the years.

Dittany - do you really believe that cosmetic surgeons prey on women's insecurities and mutilate their bodies? I know masses of people (men and women) who have had cosmetic surgery and who are greatly enhanced by it and much happier as a result. Young girls with vulgar boob jobs are pretty rare compared with the vast number of noses/ears/chins etc that are enhanced among the population at large and leave people's lives greatly improved. It is very means and unpleasant to sneer at an industry that makes such a massive difference to people's lives just because you don't feel the need to make changes to your own body...

Portoeufino - it sounds as if your grandparents "believed in education" but in matter of fact imposed rules from above. Authoritarianism is not education.

Great posts being shared! I might be one of the "privileged middle class" that our OP and another member's DPs alluded to in that I had a lot of freedoms growing up, went to a school where girls were encouraged to aim high, and even got a job in a profession where the men and women earn the same because you are on salary scales, not in a privately owned company. But when I became a mum, I noticed how the world was still unfairly biased against women - in terms of maternity leave/pay, career progression, child care costs etc etc. I do look at a lot of teenage girls from different backgrounds who are obsessed with looks, sexuality and popularity, and think that in many ways they are their own worst enemy. If you idolise the starlets taking their clothes off for photoshoots or going out dressed like prostitutes then you are not going to get taken seriously if you aspire to get competitive college places and careers. In a way (this shows my age) we were lucky that in our time, there were virtually no celeb mags in Britain and the media admired people who really achieved things, not just the "famous for being famous" types. And the male dominated professions began to accept that if a female applicant had the knowledge, skills and was hardworking - and never turned up hungover because she didn't spend hours at the pub like the lads, then they welcomed the idea of first having this person as their trainee, then colleague, till eventually, boss. But if girls and young women themselves are going to turn the clock back on feminism by becoming image obsessed and only caring about marrying well, then they too will need feminism as much as the women and girls overseas who aren't even allowed to go to school or who are forced into marriages as teenagers.

I'm with you WWW. I go out of my way to give my dd positive messages. Some of it goes in.

Bonsoir, everyone who posted in response to you has said what I wanted to say, i.e. children don't exist in a vacuum. But don't insult me by suggesting I don't understand the meaning of education. Here's a back at you.

I didn't mean censorship at all - were you replying to me bonsoir?

The whole reason feminism is needed Bonsoir, is precisely because an uneducated or in some way disadvantaged young woman might otherwise hit upon the idea of having her body mutilated to meet a beauty standard that shouldn't exist.

It is a totally stupid and reactionary idea to say that it's all right to surround the whole of society with shit ideas, as long as individuals keep the ideas in their homes pure. It's akin to saying that as long as we all keep our drains clean, we don't need a sewerage system.

I was brought up by my grandparents. They believed in education as the way to get on in life and were VERY strict. My sister and I were instructed to study hard, go to University, get a career. Hanging about and other typical teenage behaviour was strictly discouraged/forbidden.

We lied to them, snuck out of the house and did all the things we were told not to do. Drinking/smoking/sex - we did them all.

On the other hand, my father was a 60s child. He took lots of drugs in his youth. He talked freely about this. Funny stories, but also where someone overdosed and died at a party etc etc. He was very honest about what drug has what effect. To that end, I don't touch them. Dh smokes a bit of pot. It leaves me cold.

From that perspective then we can free up a lot of the laws, rules and regulations surrounding what can and can't be shown to children and young adults.

Which is the way we seem to be going anyway, frankly.

No, I don't think we need to censor the world; I think we need to educate people to make better choices.

What about everyone else's children then, Bonsoir? If they don't have parents as successful as you, do they deserve everything they get from these 'poor outside influences', or should we perhaps try to change said poor outside influences?

That's the perspective I'd come at it from.

It's nothing to do with parental control (which is not education). I hope that the education I give my children will enable them to resist poor outside influences - just as the education my parents gave me enabled me to resist poor outside influences.

Bonsoir, but unless you lock your children up they don't exist in a vacuum. They are subject to all the outside influences/peer pressure that NO parent can control entirely. You might say "over my dead body are you getting implants/a tattoo/piercings etc etc" and give any number of sensible reasons why these things are bad....at the end of the day they will want to do what they want to do. You can give them positive messages to the contrary and that is about it really. Banning stuff rarely works in the end.

WickedWaterWitch - you seem not to understand what education means

And it seems naive to suggest that if an 18yo wants breast surgery then it's her parents fault. What about media influence / institutionaliser sexism / peer pressure / th increasing normalisation of cosmetic surgery?

Bumperlicious, great slide show, well done.

Might you consider setting up a Facebook "why feminism is relevant and necessary" page showing it?

Btw, as to why feminism isn't 'totally outdated': just take a look at the numbers of female professors in British universities. And then see how many of them have children. Then compare with the numbers of men, and how many of them have children.

But feminist education isn't just about making education available to women, it's about educating the whole of society that women's bodies shouldn't be objectified. You can't put all the blame on an 18-year-old's shoulders. Society as a whole shouldn't be sending the message that it's ok for women to mutilate themselves in order to conform to a stereotype of sexual attractiveness.

Women and men both need to be educated. Feminism hasn't made education irrelevant for women, it has made education available for women.

I'm one of 3 girls.
My Mum told me last week that my Dad has said he hadn't fully appreciated how hard things were for young woman until he'd seen us trying to maintain careers whilst starting families.
I imagine my Mum had known that for some time!

I think it's interesting though that that's what it took for him to see that perspective.

Feminism is more relevant than ever. Have you seen the cuts made by this government? Its about 75% targetted to hit women.

I didnt notice sexism until I hit my 20s. A sexist, very damaging boss, a sexist working atmosphere where I was automatically offered the worst tasks (making tea and sandwiches for everyone?? while they do the job we are all actually employed to do?) passed over for promotions and opportunities, always given the half broken equipment to do my work while the men got brand new kit..
But still I worked my arse off and tried to make the best of it, followed by MY BOSS spreading nasty rumours about me, and actively trying to destroy my career! I left for a new job but people still ask for references from that period and I hate to think how it might be affecting my chances.

Also I see that while girls are getting the best exam grades and degrees, the departments I have worked in have shockingly few women in leadership positions.. less than 5 %. We have an intake at trainee level of 50%. Its an absolute disgrace, and highlights the serious hurdles women face, that 90% of them do not make it.