Looking for support and inspiration - DP says feminism is 'totally outdated'

And why do you think people train as doctors to cure people? You are so naive - they train as doctors because it's good money!

Because the vast majority of 18 year old girls don't have anything wrong with their breasts! Whereas lots of older women have horrid breasts that really need some help. Are you that ignorant that you don't know the difference?

Don't cosmetic surgeons have the same moral pressures as any other kind of doctor?

As far as I know anyone who goes through med school has to study the ethics of what they're doing - why would cosmetic surgeons be any different?

This article was in the paper today. www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/apr/16/domestic-violence-teenage-girls.

dittany - why would a cosmetic surgeon be a moral failure? A cosmetic surgeon is in business like any body else - he/she responds to market demand (since humans are unable to perform their own surgery, other than the very minor). I think an 18 year old girl asking for a boob job from her parents is an educational failure (if she wants a boob job, she should expect to pay for it herself, and 99.99% 18 years old aren't going to be able to do that, which prevents the issue arising, fortunately, since 99.99% of 18 year olds don't need boob jobs).

"Not for other people but because you are concerned about how you look to other people. If you didn't see other people ever, you'd be unlikely to want plastic surgery."

No - I repeat, I am only concerned about whether I like the look of myself! And that is how it is for most people. You'd have to be awfully insecure (almost mentally ill) to care so much about what other people thought to want to undergo cosmetic surgery because you are concerned about how you look to others.

I don't think that not seeing other people ever is very realistic! You'd be very unbalanced in myriad ways if that were the case.

And I agree with herbeggs: the point is absolutely that society is telling her her isn't good enough.

Good post bumperlicisio

I figured. It's a great mental image too. There's a lady I know who used to play giant bats with all the kids at school in hers, but Darth Niqabi is better!

Herbeggs said what I was trying to say, but better.

(darthniqabi, totally off-topic but may I say I love your name! )

We started this debate on cosmetic surgery with the example of an 18 year old girl getting a boob job. Sorry, but I don't think any apologist can make that sound healthy or sensible! An 18 year old is probably not yet fully developed. She is only just a legal adult. This is a perfect example of why education should apply to society as a whole, not just our own daughters.

Of course people do plastic surgery for themselves.

The point is, they have internalised the messages about themselves - that they are not good enough the way they are. That their nose, or their ears, or their breasts, are simply not good enough. They believe that message and so they take steps to correct the problem.

The problem isn't their ears though. The problem is that society is telling them taht their ears aren't good enough.

Not for other people but because you are concerned about how you look to other people. If you didn't see other people ever, you'd be unlikely to want plastic surgery. And the surgery you'd want to have would be to 'correct' yourself to some kind of normalised version that society has created. The desire to look a certain way isn't created in a vacuum is it? It's dictated by society i.e. other people. In the 20s/30s boyish figures with flat chests were fashionable, in the 50s the hour glass figure, in the 90s the waif/heroin chic look. This looks are mainly dictated by particularly well known figures at the time. A few hundred years ago it was all big hair and big skirts/bustles. My point is there is no inherent idea of beauty, it's dictated by society.

No, that wasn't the debate I was having. I am arguing that if I have cosmetic surgery, I shall do it for me, not for anyone else, because I want to look nice for me. Why is that hard to understand? People don't go through all that expense and hassle for other people - we are basically quite selfish!

No I don't believe it is superior at all. I thought the debate we were having is whether outside influences lead people to consider cosmetic surgery, which you don't think they do and I do.

You imply that you believe that laisser-aller is a natural and superior form of living.

Whereas most humans on the planet aspire to civilisation .

I think people get dressed etc when at home because it is convention, in case someone comes round unexpectedly or because they feel dirty staying in the same clothes. I don't think they do it to look nice for themselves. And do you think if someone lived on their own on a remote island, never seeing anyone else, that they would want to have cosmetic surgery? I don't think so, it's all about how other people see you. I don't deny it makes people happier, but it's because they think they look more attractive and that is a two way process, it involves someone else.