Women arrested for wearing burqas in France... what do you think?

But assimilation is about integration, whereas multiculturalism can sometimes encourage separation. Assimilation is not about being against immigration, it is about integrating them effectively into the wider society, rather than having islands of multicultural communities who may possibly not integrate effectively.

Sorry, I've gone right off topic. And I should be chopping veg.

Hey, Auld How is life in your part of oppressive & misogynist France?

Ce n'est pas moi, Auld. I'm nowhere near as elegant as Cote

Does anybody else think it odd that we (tend to) rail against such things as citizenship tests, when all American children have to sing their anthem every morning and most other countries do similar exercises in national pride? Any US citizen can name all the states, place them on a map and name their capitals. I bet most English would struggle to do the same with our counties. (I know most Americans couldn't place any other countries on a world map, but I still quite like the national pride thing.)

claig, I think you're right about the trend towards assimilationism; but I think that this is a mistake, and akin to closing the stable doors after the horse has bolted. Multiculturalism is here and has been for at least three generations.

'Can you imagine Brits being content to get fined for putting your washing out at the wrong time, flushing the loo at night, emptying your bins to early, etc, etc, etc'

That's why I voted against New Labour, and finally the Coalition has outlawed the bin police. For the moment, we are saved from what the Swiss have to endure.

I remember a few years back when Fance had riots, the Laour lot here rushed onto our TV screens and told us that France's model of integration was wrong, and that our multicultural system was better. But they soon after changed their tune, with Trevor Phillips saying that multiculturalism was not a success

Backlash against multiculturalism

Labour introduced citizenship classes and a test of Britishness for immigrants. Cameron has just continued the trend with his speech saying that state multiculturalism has failed. Merkel said that German multiculturalism had failed

State multiculturalism has failed

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed

It seems to me that there is now a trend to move towards the French model of assimilation rather than multiculturalism.

Blimey! The Swiss have banned a whole list of Muslim symbols including minarets! Why on earth am I surprised?

Yes, tethers, which is why it's such a fierce debate in France just now - the multiculture thing, not specifically the niqab. Still, the country's assimilationnist & culturally protectionist tradition makes it logical that France would question the acceptability of the veils and put the question to the people. I have my own view on the niqab, as stated, but was trying to highlight this important difference between the way France works and the way we do.

Switzerland was scary. Can you imagine Brits being content to get fined for putting your washing out at the wrong time, flushing the loo at night, emptying your bins to early, etc, etc, etc? My neighbours sent the police round because I mowed my lawn on the wrong day. I'll have to go & see what Switzerland thinks about niqabs now ...

I was on the fence for a while there. But then I remembered that some people are always wrong about everything and it all became clear. I disagree with your niqab but will fight to the death etc etc...

Thanks to the people who helped me decide. You know who you are.

I accept those views and the reasoning behind the legislation, CoteDAzur. What I do not accept is that the solution is to legislate how women dress. By doing this, the French government has become what it was purporting to be against.

As Goblinchild has already stated

Goblin, others may want you banned, but I'll fight for your right to stay

I've always defended you

Ah, but this thread is about burkas and you can conceal an awful lot of stuff under a burka.

France's burqa ban is not about banning some item of clothing, but shunning the mentality that women should be segregated and hidden from view. They have been debating this issue extensively over the past year, and the result is every one of those debates is a resounding support for the ban.

France is a secular country and "equality" is one if its three fundamental values. It is not surprising that they consider the religious segregation of women as abhorrent.

Basically, French don't want to live with burqa wearers and their men who share this mentality, who are a very small minority within the French Muslim community. The overwhelming feeling here is that if is is how they want to live, they should go live in a place that accepts this way of life.

Well, that is its policy, garlic- but some would argue that the assimilationist model is redundant in the face of such clearly multicultural parts of cities.

But it may cut down on shoplifting

I agree that wearing a niqab is not a feminist choice.

I refuse to believe that being told by the state not to wear it is one either.

You're right, Norman- it's the Sarkozy show.

I've discovered I was using the wrong word - France is "assimilationnist".

Can I be here and spout nonsense?
Pleeese.

sarcastic?

For example, I'd like to ban GORGEOUSX from this thread, but of course to do so would be absurd.

It is her right to be here and spout nonsense, and it would be wrong to ban her just because most of us wanted to.