Women arrested for wearing burqas in France... what do you think?

I think it's very important to see someone's face.

I personally find them oppressive. I know it is completely different, but you never see a muslim man in a burka??!!

I have been to two muslim countries, Turkey and Tunisia, and have only ever seen women wearing the hijab. However I have seen women in the burka in East London. Presumably these women are from different countries to Turkey and Tunisia. It seems to me, that it is cultural rather than religious.

I don't have to agree with the wearing of the niqab to disagree with the French legislation. I disagree with both.

As far as I can see, the state is 'protecting' women from being told what to wear by... err... telling them what to wear.

Funding targeted support for women who are victims of abuse within the muslim community would seem like a better option if this were really about oppression.

Women who wear burkhas (sp?) do so because they do not want any men other than their immediate family to see their faces.

Although I don't personally agree with the concept of the burka, surely this new law will oppress these women further? If they can't wear their veils outside then I imagine many will be forced to stay inside by husbands/fathers; never being "allowed" to be seen in public.

If their beliefs are so strong as to wear a burkha in the first place, they will not change because the government tells them it is "wrong". These women have effectively been placed under house arrest, and I think that is horrific in a supposedly free country such as France.

The face and its expressions are so important. I am not comfortable conversing with somone if you cannot see their face. You may as well be talking to a wall. It is part of being human being able to smile and laugh with somone and share their emotions not cover them up

Yes, but we can't legislate against everything that results in women capitualting to peer pressure and doing bad things. And if Burqua wearing is singled out over other anti-woen habits then it is simply anti-moslem discrimnation.

French muslims suffer extreme racism and discrimination. The Le Penn vote isn't without it's effeects in the every day lives of Algerians in Paris and Marseille. Whatever many women think, many muslim woen wear hijab as a mark of thier muslim identity. As a protest against those who are anti North Africans. Hijab wearing increased as soon as the french tried to ban it in schools.

It's reasonable for anyone, wearing any kind of face covering (including teenagers in fancy dress masks or men in cycle helmets) to remove face coverings for passport control / security checkes etc, but iniquitous and uneccessary to make special provision against a niquab in this respect.

bemybebe, I'd be interested to know what you think the "very real problem" is that's being solved?

alexispolismum - I agree. But I don't think that everything that I think is harmful to women as a whole should be banned by the state. Nor, indeed, everything that I think is harmful to people as a whole.

I'm going to de-lurk as a tentative feminist, please go easy on me...

I think I also agree with alexpolismum and the OP that the wearing of the burqa is harmful to the feminist cause as a whole.

However, reading the Guardian article posted by computermouse above, I was struck by the last sentence. It's pretty trite and actually quite horrible in terms of its language...

""If women want to walk around half-naked I don't object to them doing so. If they want to wear tight jeans where you can see their underwear or walk around with their breasts hanging out, I don't give a damn. But if they are allowed to do that, why should I not be allowed to cover up?"

It did make me think: well, as far as harming women goes, walking around dressed as some kind of male fantasy is possibly as bad as wearing a burqa and essentially becoming "faceless" as alex said.

But we would never agree to police the wearing of (eg) high heels or fetish-type clothing on the grounds that they are a patriarchal construct and thereby damage women (whether or not woman has actually chosen to wear them without direct pressure from a man). That would be an intolerable use of state/male power. So i don't think from a feminist view point we can accept the enforced banning of burqas either.

there is, not their!

Yes, I agree, Bleached Whale, those things are also harmful to women as a whole. But I disagree about having the gumption to make their own choice - their is such a thing as peer/ societal pressure, not to mention propaganda, that essentially makes real choice near impossible

I think celebrities talking about their Brazilians, Hollywoods and boob jobs are 'harmful to women as a whole' but would march inthe streets to protect thier right to rip out their pubic hair if they so wish.

Women as a whole have enough gumption to make their own choice as long as no-one is co-ercing or threatening them. Paternalistic law is oppressive.

bemybebe - re multiculturalism - I believe that multiculturalism works when the people coming in to a host culture are of a similar religious background. Poles/Greeks coming into the UK, for example, who are mostly from a Christian background, albeit different branches, are generally assimilated more easily. (I am not saying this is right or wrong, just commenting that this is the way it seems to be). People seem to distrust those who come from a different religious background, perhaps through a lack of understanding, or because they feel threatened by the new religion.

I am going to go against the popular tide here and say that I think wearing the burqua is harmful to women as a whole. I think that (as the OP suggested) it encourages misogyny, by making it publicly acceptable to efface a woman's identity, by making her faceless, and for her husband's view only, as though she belonged to him. Some women may indeed choose it, but I believe they are affecting women as a whole. No one exists in a vacuum. Their choices affect society's attitude towards women.

I think the French using a very blunt instrument to solve a very real problem. I have no idea what should be done instead, but doing nothing in the current climate is also not an option.

Multiculturalism, unfortunately, has failed.

I disagee witht he stance France has taken. There might now be lots of women who can't / don't feel able to go out at all because their burqas are illegal and are therefore further removed from society and isolated in their homes.

I think as it's a democracy and this ban was voted in by a majority of voters/representatives, that I don't much care.

oh yes, stripey! But what should we actually do? I like the idea (only mine, so far) of men going to France specifically to wear niqabs in public to draw attention to basic fuckwittedness. Prob need 2 campaigns, 1 v misogyny, 2 v state sponsored veil-control??

What Stripey said.