Porn - I use it and feel bad - help convince me porn is wrong

"AliceWorld I disagree - orgasms are important, but if you've reached the point yopu can;t have them without porn, feminist objections to it are the least of your problems, frankly"

Really? On the whole scale of things, that important? More important than the other impacts of porn?

Carmina, you just need to google 'porn' and look at the first few results.

I'm not advising you to do so however unless you want to see some really nasty shit. Mainstream porn has become very hardcore nowadays.

Personally I find it extremely concerning that children and young adults are being exposed to this stuff. We are a far far cry from the 'dirty videos' in over 18 sex shops image that porn has somehow managed to retain.

I think most people of our generation who defend porn don't really know what they are defending.

if its the case you are addicted to porn I would suggest you seek professional help.

BC: I understand what you're saying and I agree with you - tbh I haven't seen a lot of heterosexual porn (as I know it would do absolutely nothing for me ) - I have seen lesbian porn and they looked pretty happy to me - no power or control going on.

David51

I think dittany & Beachcomber in particular would benefit from reading this:

That is a supremely patronising post David!

It would be on any section really, but here in the femist section, from a man to a woman. Well .

Part of Finn Mackay's closing speech at FiL comes to mind:

And the role of men in our movement is another issue that has seen much debate over the past year.

Of course, all men have a role to play in the struggle for women?s liberation. For example, they can stop rape, by not raping women. They can bring the sex industry to its? knees by not buying women in prostitution or consuming pornography. They can remove their lucrative patriarchal pound from the institutions that are oppressing us and demeaning them.

Our pro-feminist brothers can further this aim by challenging other men. By picketing lap-dancing clubs and other such establishments, by putting themselves on the line, just as women have to do, every day, both in those clubs and without ? on the streets, in our workplaces, in our homes.

But however men are involved in this movement, I suggest one place they should certainly not be is in the leadership, because I believe that women should lead and direct the women?s movement. And this is a political stance, one all too often reduced to so-called ?man-hating? by those who do not appreciate the grand scale of woman-hating that goes uncommented and unchecked in our society on a daily basis.

As the late Andrea Dworkin maintained, we are not feminists because we hate men, we are feminists because we believe in men?s humanity, against all evidence to the contrary.

But protecting our women-only spaces is just another struggle we are forced to confront, as this vital place for organisation, resistance and recovery continues to come under attack and is fast disappearing. All oppressed groups should have the right to political self-organisation and ours should be no exception. We should not be made to justify or apologise for women-only space; one our most dynamic tactics for change that we have built up over the decades and which our movement has been built upon.

I saw you say something else very patronising a while ago.

IMO posting here as a man, proclaiming to be a feminist, you need to be very respectful of this being a predominantly woman-only space.

Carmina you said;

"However, I still maintain that the vast majority of porn users are normal people and no threat to women."

I think you are probably right if what you mean is that these porn consumers will not suddenly go out and rape, or force their wives to choke on their penises. (They might express disgust at women's pubic hair though or pressure their partner into a sexual practice she is not comfortable with.)

However these 'normal people' are the main reason the porn industry exists. They have already done harm to the women in porn by creating a demand for porn and therefore a need for an endless supply of women who can be coerced into doing porn.

Porn, just like prostitution, preys on the disadvantaged and vulnerable members of society. Or rather the men in porn prey on the vulnerable. There was a study done (I think I read this in a Jensen article) where women who had a history of sexual abuse where X times more likely to be asked to do porn than women with no history of sexual abuse. I'll try to look this up later when I have more time.

Civilised humane people protect the vulnerable members of their society, they do not jack off to images of those people being exploited, raped and reliving abuse. To say porn consumers are not a threat to women is to erase the suffering of the women in porn. It is to treat them as non-existent in terms of being real people, it is to treat them as less than human.

Count me out too. My first exchange with dittany on MN was a slightly heated one. I look back now and recognise that I was talking wishy washy bollocks and dittany was being uncompromising in pointing out that I was talking wishy washy bollocks.

Women need to express feminist values in no uncertain terms. Why should we be nicey nicey and mince our words when we are being killed and raped in this godawful society? We will get nowhere if we stick to the (controlling and oppressive) patriarchal rules of being feminine and nonconfrontational (why do you think those rules exist?).

On a lighter note, I nominate this for feminist quote of the week;

"If you open your mind too much your brain falls out Carmina. Then you need a feminist to come and help you pick it up again.".

Can someone prove to me 'beyond reasonable doubt' then that porn doesn't damage women? Thought not. Because it's blindingly obvious it does

Why is the emphasis to prove the other way? Interesting that.

As someone once said on here, orgasms are not that important. Why run the risk of the damage to women, just so men can have orgasms? I wonder.

And as for this! "to be honest dittany I'm not interested in getting into an argument with you - I think everyone here knows by now what a boring and futile exercise that is." Seriously?! Who is the everyone you are speaking for? Count me the fuck out. I am reminded why I maintain that women only spaces are utterly important and it is essential they are defended.

It is wrong because it is exploiting other human beings. Would you want your DC to work in the porn industry-if not why is it OK for other people's DCs? Are yours more equal?

Ok - maybe you're right and I'm wrong.

I don't know as much about the porn industry as some of you do, so I will read the links and look a bit more into it.

However, I still maintain that the vast majority of porn users are normal people and no threat to women.

Thank you for the links.

Beachcomber is spot on!

Porn harms women because it sends out a clear message that society has no problem with women being treated as a sub human sex class by men.

Society condoning porn sends out the message loud and clear that it is fine to rape women and children and verbally and physically abuse them.

Porn makes a mockery of the concept of consent and sends out the message that it is fine to do so.

Carmina I'm not 'offended' by porn, I'm fucking revolted by it (I mean this in the 'revolution' sense of the word although the 'disgusted' sense works too).

'Prove beyond reasonable doubt' - get a grip woman. Would you ask someone to prove that films of black people being called niggers and being physically abused by white people 'caused harm' or would you think it was pretty fucking obvious?

Yeah, let's prove that dressing women up as under-age school girls and filming them being gang raped and choked on penises is harmful. What a waste of time when one could just engage one's brain and see the harm.

A huge part of porn is also about power and control, see a link yet?

Rape has nothing to do with sex - it's about power and control

Xposts - that was to dittany - sorry

Society in general - A small group of people being offended by something is not sufficient grounds for banning it. And It's naive of women to think that if pornography was totally eradicated all would be right with the world. Sexism exists because some men have low self esteem and try to exert some sort of pathetic 'power' over females ( and other males ) - they are to be pitied. The nicest, strongest ( in body and mind ) kindest men I know respect and admire women ( and use porn occassionally ) I know you have women's interests at heart dittany - the relentless dedication to your cause is admirable - but most 'controversial' issues are never that simple to explain away in the way you sometimes try to - just because someone says or does ABC - doesn't mean they're XYZ
Try and be a bit more open minded.

carmina why don't you think about why men want to jack off to images of women being abused, instead of instantly going in to the tired old censorship argument