Porn - I use it and feel bad - help convince me porn is wrong

sorry their brains
am typing quickly...

No MrIC, it is pointing out that the women in porn movies aren't a different type of woman to women like their sisters, mothers, daughters.

They're the same as us. We are encouraged to believe that they are a different species from us (they're so drugged up they don't feel anything, they're brains have been damaged by their upbringing so they don't feel things the way we would, they're just not as clever and sensitive and well, human as us).

It's got nothign to do with censoring what women should be allowed to do in bed. It's got everything to do with humanising the women who are abused in porn films.

Again, ask any man who wanks to what he has deluded himself is consensual porn - would he want his sister/girlfriend/mother/cousin to be in porn. I guarantee you he will say no. Men know this stuff is wrong, they just don't care. They don't care because society tells them it is fine to not care about these women - they aren't real women anyway. They are sex objects, they are the sex class.

hang on a sec! Sorry beachcomber, I know you aren't the only person to have made this argument, but isn't the whole "would you want your sister to do porn?" argument a bit dodgy and kind of accepting the misogynists' premises about what is sexually acceptable behaviour for women?

As you say most, if not all, men would say "no, I wouldn't want my sister to do porn", but then ask them why and most would probably say "because I don't want my sister to be a slut" (or other choice misogynistic word). Some wouldn't - they'd say "because I don't want my sister to be abused and treated like meat" - but a lot wouldn't. As you say "society tells them it is fine not to care about these women" - they don't want their sister to be a slut because then that then reflects back onto them. Surely we should be challenging that and saying:

a) the women in porn are women and human beings - we should care about them.

b) why is a women who has sex with lost of men a "slut" while a man who does the same is a "stud"? why should a woman be ashamed of, or made to feel ashamed of this behaviour? why the double-standard?

I agree that men should be made to see that porn is wrong (or, even better, they should work it out for themselves) but I'm just not sure that the "imagine if it was you girlfriend/sister/mum" argument is the best one to use (sure it's the easiest) as it just ends up reinforcing negative stereotypes of sexually active women.

And WWIFN is absolutely right - there's a whole generation out there who are having their sexuality and therefore their relationships, hijacked by the porn industry. We've got to acknowledge the problem - I'm not happy to hand over my children's sexuality to an industry rooted in vicious hatred of half the human race, I really can't understand why any other parents would be. But that's what you're doing, if you think the widespread use of porn is nothing to be concerned about.

Carmina's getting personal with you because your very powerful argument made her feel uncomfortable Beachcomber.

Carmina the things that happen to the women in the films in porn are not fantasy they're real. They really are gagging on penises and being anally raped. That's real.

And even if it were fantasy, are you really happy that so many men have fantasies of humiliating and torturing women? Do you really not see anything wrong with that? Where do you think those fantasises come from? From a place of deep respect and love for women, d'you think?

One of the most disturbing things about the fact that the distress of these women sometimes shows, is that the film directors could easily choose to edit that distress out and only show the censored version - the smiles and the fuck me harders. Teh very fact that they leave that distress in, shows that they calculate that many of their viewers, will jack off harder when they see the woman trying not to cry or showing her despair. How can anyone be comfortable with the idea that bringing yourself to orgasm by watching other human beings being tortured, is OK? It's fucking sick.

I find it insulting when anyone describes my habits as 'chilling' - or that because I'm an occasional porn user I'm either too thick to notice what's really going on, or I don't care because I like getting off on watching women being abused. You can't possible know what's really happening in every porn film ever made - so sweeping statements are ridiculous and add nothing to your argument.

I smoke sometimes because I like it
I drink sometimes because I like it
I watch porn sometimes because I like it

Maybe I should stop enjoying myself

Carmina, you post quite a lot on the feminist section expressing your low opinion of feminists don't you? You posted some unpleasant stuff on the 'resisting femininity' thread too IIRC.

Funny way to go about things really - nobody is making you join in feminist discussions.

I wonder if there are posters who go to the camping section and tell them they are putting their tents up wrong or go to spirituality and poke fun at the values expressed there? Must ask sometime.

I mainly post on the Relationships board and the laughable equation that to be anti-porn is to be anti-sex is frequently made. It is perfectly possible to be pro-sex and anti-porn, but I've found that this makes pro-porn posters uncomfortable.

However I think it's a moot point that watching porn doesn't have any effect on private sexual behaviour, because yet again every day on the Relationships board it's obvious that porn consumption clearly does have an enormous effect on the sex that people are having and what is deemed acceptable by female partners especially.

It amazed me recently when a series of threads revealed a complete failure to acknowledge the difference between fellatio and throat-fucking/hair-pulling, with female posters insisting that they enjoyed having their hair painfully yanked, or having to gag and wipe the tears from their eyes during oral sex.

Or the posters who couldn't even countenance the idea that male masturbation was possible without porn.

Far more private sexuality has been influenced by the porn culture than porn apologists will ever admit or acknowledge. Younger posters especially have never known sex to be any different, because they grew up in the lads mag culture and have literally never had sex with someone who doesn't use porn.

Carmina why are you getting personal with me?

Your use of the word 'obsessed' and insinuation that I watch a lot of porn, whilst claiming to be against it, is just nasty and low.

Are you making personal attacks in an effort to get me to shut up (common silencing tactic)?

This is the feminist section of MN, which is why I am discussing porn from a feminist perspective.

You said;

"Some people do the things you see in porn as part of their everyday sex lives - it might be filthy and disgusting to you but to others it's totally normal and exceptable."

What you don't seem to understand is that I don't give a hooey what people get up to in their personal sex lives as long as all participants are happy with the proceedings and nobody is being coerced. I don't think certain sex acts are disgusting or offensive as long as all concerned are enjoying their intimacy.

The idea that feminists are against porn because they are prudes who are anti-sex is often trotted out in discussions about porn. So much so that this notion often appears in FAQ on porn awareness websites;

"Aren?t the people who object to pornography really just afraid of sex?

Feminists who have committed their lives to the anti-pornography movement have been among the most articulate spokespeople for a progressive view of sexuality. These are the people who have done the most to help society move toward a more healthy view of sexuality. To accuse them of being ?anti-sex? is an attempt to distract attention from pornography?s sexist and racist images of sex that are fundamentally unhealthy for individuals and our culture."

stoppornculture.org/faq/#3

Also saying porn is just fantasy is stupid and delusional.

Ok BC - this is really starting to piss me off.

you sound completely obsessed with pornography ( you seem to view it far more than I do and I admitted to using it! ) I know your opinion will never change where this issue is concerned ( so it's difficult to debate it with you ) but I'd just like to tell you again.

Pornography is fantasy - and the vast majority of users know that. They see it as harmless and normal - it does not spill over into every other aspect of your life.

Not all women in the porn industry are being abused - most are there because they want to be and consider themselves as actresses ( some of them are in other areas of the entertainment industry not porn related )

Some people do the things you see in porn as part of their everyday sex lives - it might be filthy and disgusting to you but to others it's totally normal and exceptable.

Also, if you can bear to actually watch any of this offensive material - you will see that the women don't always manage to hide their distress. One can see then gagging, their eyes bulging, them trying to get their breath, grimacing, and sometimes making noises of being in pain. Sometimes they look afraid, sometimes they look drugged.

It is obvious to anyone with a brain and a sense of empathy that these women are having a rough time of it and are being badly treated.

So the people who like this shit either - don't notice the distress of another human being, don't care about the distress or get a kick from it.

Chilling.

RitaLynn - if porn is all happy clappy happy smiling laydeez making sweet sweet consensual lurve with the kind and caring pool 'boy' (not man), how come when I go to porn sites the titles of the videos are fucking hideous?

Are you using a different google to me - one that transports you back to the 1970s?

I typed porn and clicked on the first result - here are the titles;

"Asain amateur babe fucked hard by...."

"ATM hottie " (thats ass to mouth for anyone who is still in the 1970s)

"Big black cocks in da butt XXX"

"Pretty lesbian teens on hot orgy"

"Interracial Double Dicked XXX"

"Plug My Leaky Hole"

"Long hair brunette gets doggystyled and facial"

"Dirty whore gets banged"

"Busty MILF with great pussy gets banged"

"Chocolate slut hardcore fucking action"

"Hot wife fucked like a dog"

"Teen babysitter slut fucks and sucks"

There is also a charming advert down the bottom of the page for a website called "18 and abused".

There are pictures of double penetration/gang bang/women being penetrated anally by very large penises/very young women/surgically 'enhanced' women/women tied up/women having their hair pulled and, listen carefully; two women in stocks . Remember this is a mainstream website.

You know what - even if this does look consensual to deluded misogynists, it doesn't actually matter. This is hate speech against women. The women are not women, they are blonds/brunettes/babes/cunts/whores/dirty whores/sluts/bitches/teens/MILFs/fucktoys - and these are the less violent and abusive terms. There are much worse.

This, this is the result of society turning its head the other way and spouting 'ach it looks consensual, boys will be boys, they don't mean it really, I once saw a porn film and the slut woman in it was smiling.'

You know one of the things I hate most about the 'it looks consensual so I'm just going to jack off and not engage my brain' argument? It is that to add insult to injury, the women in porn films are constantly having to 'beg for more' and say 'harder harder' and try not to gag, and to hide their pain and distress and look like they just love drinking the cum of ten different men. They also have to lie about their sexually transmitted diseases, abortions, drug habits, anal tears and prolapses, alcoholism and the fact that they work in prostitution.

Again, ask any man who wanks to what he has deluded himself is consensual porn - would he want his sister/girlfriend/mother/cousin to be in porn. I guarantee you he will say no. Men know this stuff is wrong, they just don't care. They don't care because society tells them it is fine to not care about these women - they aren't real women anyway. They are sex objects, they are the sex class.

The wider problem is that society's tolerance of porn sends out the message loud and clear that abusing women is sexy and a male right. Indeed it sends out the message that this isn't abuse because women like it. They consent to it. They beg for more the dirty sluts.

EllieG: why would anyone tell you to bugger off? You have a valid POV and you haven't insulted anyone. I'm only a sporadic poster, but get a lot from the feminist threads and I say, the more the merrier. Welcome.

The trouble is that some men think they are paying for sex when they take a woman out and buy her dinner....it's almost like thats what they expect at the end of the evening.....

I don't think porn users asking genuine questions do get shouted at.

I think the OP got shouted at because of his tone tbh.

Ok, maybe perfectly valid excuse is taking it too far, but there's the analogy made in these discussions of shopping in Primark - do we shout at the consumer and call them child abusers, or do we rather try and educate them, and try to tackle primark itself?

I think if most consumers of porn knew they were watching abuse of vulnerable women, I think then maybe many would stop (maybe I'm naive)

I would certainly say ignorance is not a "perfectly valid" excuse, but yes, it is an excuse.

Would most "casual" porn-users stop if they knew more about it, I wonder?

Laws re internet porn

Yes, AtomicBum, that is what I'm saying, if you haven't investigated to the extent that some of us have, then it "looks" harmless and consensual fun.

I think that it's a mistake to begin a priori, as some of us do, with the idea that it's clearly abuse and therefore that the men must like watching the abuse of women

Yes, Inmculada, I believe it is legal but there are laws, aren't there? I'm fairly sure a pimp is illegal? And therefore, by extension, is a producer of pornography classified as a pimp? And I also believe it is illegal to advertise yourself for prostition, or at least to make any display or something, so is it ellegal to advertise pornography?

Ousel, I think what Rita is saying is that the excuses used by the viewers are valid only in that they are convinced that they are true because society has told this is so. Not they are they valid reasons why it's OK to watch, but valid reasons for not knowing the harm of it, IYSWIM.

That's true, TAB and like Sweden and now, by the looks of it, France, the UK should make paying for sex illegal - which would throw an interesting legal light on pornography depicting some sort of sex act.

At the moment, paying for sex is still legal in the UK AFAIK.

I'm not sure that the freedom of speech or the press arguement really stands up with pornography. Yes, the press can print their own opinions, but they still have to work within the confines of the law and censorship. They can be prosecuted for lible or copyright, so why then is pornography so different?

There are ruleas as to what can be shown on television, and there are rules as to what can be shown on the cover (albeit they can be twisted a bit - see Sunday Sport), and (as far as I know) you cannot buy XXX pornography out of a shop in Britain.

So, if the law has to be followed by the press and what they print, if prostitution was illegal, surely then so would pornography? If it were illegal to pay for sex, then it would be illegal to film someone being paid to have sex. Yes, there would still be posing only photographs, since there is no law against a person posing for a photographer, but it would cut out the hardcore stuff. I know that there would be the counter arguement that this person is having consensual sex, and is being paid only to allow filming of it and to have sex, but that is just a semantical arguement, surely? Mainstream pornography, if I understand it correctly, has contracted sexcual acts, doesn't it? And therefore the person is being paid to perform sexual acts.

I agree that people shouldn't be condoning pornography, but I'm not sure we should be attacking the casual user. I agree with you that pornography shouldn't be a rite of passage, but what AtomicBum showed was that at around 20, he had an epiphany, and previously hadn't thought too much about it. But what if he'd been 25, or 30, or 35?

I think these people who watch it have a perfectly valid excuse - a) it's legal b) they think it's consensual

I googled porn last night to have a look, and some of it is gang bangs, etc, but an awful lot, from my survey last night, looked like consensual sex, albeit in strange situations (the pizza delivery boy, my best friend's mum, etc)