Why are society's restrictions on men's appearance never mentioned?

David - Wear a full face of make-up, shave legs, wear high heels

No LittleRedDragon, it's my fault for not bothering to put a name in my post [lazy]

I've been thinking of publicising a 'Rejecting masculinity' day on Facebook

I am trying to think of un-masculine things men can do but got stuck on:

Wear something bright pink

Read a chick lit novel on the tube/bus

Wear t shrt with feminist slogan

...etc??

Carmina - No it isn't bad! Who has said it is bad? We are discussing what constructs "femininity" and why men aren't "allowed" to wear women's clothing.

Why don't you answer ELNP's question?

this reminds me of something that happened when I was at uni.
It was a very traditional Oxford college. There was a craze among some of the men for wearing skirts and dresses (my db, who was at another college and who is very slight and had long curly hair at the time, also used to do it to get into a particular nightclub free, as they charged entry for men not women). Must have been a early 90s thing I suppose.
Anyhow, the waiting staff complained about having to serve men wearing dresses at Formal Hall because they felt it detracted from the solemnity of the occasion, and they felt that they personally were being insulted by it, so the men staged a 'skirts in formal hall' protest where lots of other men who weren't normally into skirts joined in and wore skirts to hall.
The rebellion was quashed by the more leftie of the acadmics who argued that the whole thing was treating the (lowly paid and generally badly treated) hall staff with disrespect and that one had a particular responsibility to treat them well. (underpaying them was ok though I suppose).

you couldn't make it up, could you?!

carmina, I love wearing mascara and all of that stuff, but I think the point is it's restrictive when these optional extras are presented as integral to femininity.

I think it's totally fine for someone of either gender to have black eyelashes and bright red nails if that's what they like, or indeed to paint any part of their body any colour they want. I am puzzled though as to why those things are considered more 'feminine' than leaving your body its natural colour. I don't think my normal-coloured nails are particularly masculine or unfeminine, they're just my nails . Same thing with shaved legs.

Xposts - yes I'm completely wrong ( again )

Oh well

I don't agree with cosmetic surgery at all ( but god knows I could probably do with some ) - wearing make up is not something I consider 'wrong' - I don't wear much, just like having very long black eyelashes - is that bad?

Carmina - As was pointed out to you repeatedly on the other thread, it could be seen entirely differently. From where I am standing, you are refusing to embrace your femininity, but attempting to disguise it as much as possible, by shaving legs, etc. Anyway, let's not go over and over the same points again.

I'm with AyeRobot, Puffin and others who have pointed out that men are free to start their own sartorial campaigns. I'd be quite happy to support them. if only cos I'd love to see dh in a floral skirt

Oops.

Not you Dragon, Carmina.

Narky - me? I don't know, I think I understand the difference?

at Carmina. You will be asked to leave the feminism threads if you dont start agreeing soon!!

You really don't understand the difference between being female and the artificial concept of femininity?

I dunno ... I think confidence is what's sexy, but one of the things I liked from the other thread was the idea that we could try out other ways of being female and sexy that weren't the stereotypical 'must shave legs and armpits'. Being a dark-haired woman it's a right bugger shaving all the time and I did enjoy seeing that - as with heels - men honestly don't notice or care about these things half as much as you'd think.

Someone was talking about wearing a pretty dress with unshaven legs and what that was like, and I agree it's quite fun to do that and see the reaction.

Sorry, going off topic now I guess!

Yes LRD - confidence is what's sexy - not the shoes or the skirt.
If you're confident being a woman and embrace your femininity rather than reject it - you'll be a lot happier. I dress fairly Tom boyish, but I also have bright red nails and very long eyelashes ( thanks to masses of mascara ) I'm very happy being female - I don't see it as negative and something I should be resisting - one aspect of being female is you can have fun with clothes and make up, I can be creative - I love that. I don't want to be grey, dull ( and hairy ) - I want colour and fun!

Oh yes Epiphiny - I know a woman who bought a new potty for her 2yo son because the potty she already had (used 18 months previously by her daughter) was pink. Lunacy!

There's a longstanding idea that gay men are somehow more 'feminine'. It's homophobia. Men are taught from early on that they shouldn't express any preferance for 'feminine' things. I have a DH who was more into reading books than playing sports. His parents sent him to boarding school 'to toughen him up'. Yes, because if you're worried he is 'turning gay' sending him to live with hundreds of boys with no females around is the best thing to do .

For Red Nose Day DD's school did an "Opposite Day" to raise money. DD was seriously considering going dressed as a boy whereas I know that none of the boys in her class would have even dreamt of going dressed as a girl. The risk of ridicule was too great.

I did once work in an office where one particular chap sometimes came in wearing a sarong but it was an unusual place with no real dress code at all. I wore a kilt there once or twice.

Everywhere else it's generally been shirt and tie or, if you're lucky and you don't have any clients to see on a Friday, you could get away with a polo shirt and chinos. In my last job you could wear jeans and a fleece if you were going to be out on site (there was a lot of construction going on) or were having a day in the server room shifting kit around.

That sounds likely ELNP, that's probably where I remember it from!

I've never worn high heels for work, though have worked in offices (and indeed on a huge trading floor) where I was definitely the only women not wearing them. That could probably be considered pressure, though I don't let that sort of thing affect me personally! Men did not routinely wear ties in these places, by the way.

Also at every single wedding and party and other 'smart' or formal event I've been to, as far as I can remember I've been the only women not wearing heels. Again personally I don't mind but imagine some women would feel badly-dressed and uncomfortable (though not half as uncomfortable as I'd be in heels :))

I remember a woman at work 'having' to sell all her baby stuff - not just clothes and bedding but cot, pram, car seat, baby bouncer etc - because they were 'for girls' (I assume pink) and her second child was going to be a boy. This was stuff only for the first few months anyway, so it seemed madness to me, it's not as though the baby would know or care! It's weird how horrified people are about any taint of femininity touching a boy, I think there's a good dose of homophobia in there as well as misogyny and the two things are very much entwined together.

If men want to set up a "Blue is Poo" campaign, I would be happy to lend my support. Would be a bit odd for a woman to start one up, though, especially on a feminism board.

If the OP wants to set up a "Celebrate the satorial freedoms we have as woman", I would be happy to contribute, although would probably point out things such as the choice to wear a skirt as well as trousers isn't universal - see previous school uniform threads. Relative restrictions have been mentioned on the resisting femininity thread.

As for the men shaving thing - has no-one noticed how many men, especially younger ones, have facial hair these days?

Correction, it was a motion put forward at the TUC conference

Oh, sorry, my post is on the other page now. I know some shops require their staff to wear the clothes/shoes as part of their uniform. A mate of mine works in LK Bennett and says there's always a rush to put in for the flats, because everyone can't wear the same stuff.

I agree with you that high heels and stereotypically 'sexy' clothing isn't necessarily attractive to men - I think when it is attractive, it's often more because women think they look sexy and therefore behave that way, than because men notice it. I wear heels most of the time and most men I know don't notice - they're puzzled when I turn up in flats and suddenly 3 inches shorter, which kind of suggests they didn't realize the heels were there in the first place!

When I was younger, I used to think it was great that women could dress in trousers or more masculine clothes, or skirt/dresses. I thought we had the better deal because we had more choice of clothing.

And to some extent I still feel this way.

However, the problem is why we have the choice. It's OK for women to want to be more like men and dress in their clothes, because it's a step up for us. It's not acceptable for a men to dress more like a women, because women's things are inferior and it's a laughable step down for men to want to dress in them.

This, I feel, is the central problem, and until we get to the root to why it's unaccaptable for men to be more like women, we'll never get equality.

Suits and ties, are really silly though and I have no idea why men inflict them on themselves. [shrugs]