Resisteing feminity 2

Aliceworld
We do lots more to progress feminism too. This thread isn't the sum total of our efforts.

I didn't mean to suggest that this is all the MN feminist board are doing! Sorry! I was more specifically meaning the femininity/pressure to be beautiful in order to be feminine thing. I just felt that the hairy legs thing plays so easily into the hands of those that would stereotype feminists (I already wear Doc Martins!) Maybe I shouldn't be concerned about that.

The size issue is interesting. I feel personally that I've totally lost sight of whether my size is acceptable, healthy etc. because I feel I do not have a healthy example to compare it to. I really quite obsessively watch my stomach grow and shrink depending on how "good" I'm being in the mirror, so if I could combat that it would probably do more for me becoming a confident woman than body hair.

Will probably lurk some more and watch with interest.

I'm just really glad this forum is here. It's really sparked my interest in feminism again (having become a lot more passive and caught up in mundane every day life). Got myself Gyn/Ecology off Amazon so might read that before I come back as I'm no expert on feminist theory.

Re size - I am 5'11" so never likely to be a size 8 I guess. My natural weight hovers about 11s - generally i can maintain that without dieting and without bingeing. I have tried to get lower but only managed it when I was ill or dieting really hard. Neither of which was much fun.

Hello.

Love this!

I despise the word 'feminine'! WTF does it mean? If it simply means the qualities of being female, then say 'female'. But of course it doesn't, it means the things women are supposed to do to be acceptable and proper women. Boxes again!

I do try to resist but if I'm honest I am getting worse at sticking to my guns as I age. Windswept and natural works when you are youthful, not so much when you are over 40 . But I do try. I manage to forswear the razor most days and do without makeup when I'm not going to work but I can't quite break the habits I have got into.

The whole fat/thin thing is one that I am working through at the moment. I have struggled in the past with my weight because I love food but don't love exercise. I'm 6 months post-partum having not really got healthy between the two pregnancies, and I"ve realised that I need to exercise more because the most important thing I can do for my children at the start of their lives is to set a good example about health and I've come to the conclusion that the only way you can be truly healthy is to love food and love exercise in equal part. Love one more than the other, and you're going to have issues. Many 'naturally slim' people have become a size 6 by eating nothing and going to the gym, and many size 20s have done so by eating everything and not getting off their backsides and then claim it's their genes or that they're well built. Eat well, exercise well and see where you get to and learn to be happy with that. In that regard I really look up to my DH. He eats really well and exercises 3 times a week on top of being active with the children and round the house. He doesn't obsess about one or the other, and he has it sussed. It turns out he is naturally very slim due to fast metabolism - very low body fat and low weight - and wishes he was a bit heavier, but is happy to live with it as he is because he has the balance just right and is how he is meant to be IYSWIM.

He used to go out with someone who was a size 8/10, tall, slim, a real clothes horse - they just looked fabulous on her. Everyone says she is naturally slim because she doesn't look anorexic and she probably believes it herself. But being with her did DH's head in as he'd make her dinner and she'd pick at it, they'd go to a nice restaurant and she'd push a salad round the plate. She wasn't truly naturally slim - she ate too few calories for that to be her natural weight. She looked great, she was pretty fit, but she wasn't truly healthy.

Me, I eat like a horse so I need to exercise like one too. I'm working on that bit now - lost 10cm off my waist since November when I started (exercise - no diet restrictions at all as I'm bf AND love my food) and am now probably closing in on a size 14 now rather than my previous post-partum 18. But more importantly than that to me now, I'm only an inch away from being under the diabetes risk factor for waist measurement, and that is a much better goal than dress size. I'm also just tipping 30 BMI now so moving from obese to overweight which to me is a big deal as I've been over 30 for 4 years, although there is a long way to go before I can be considered close to within the healthy range!

Oh that was long and rambling, sorry. It's amazing what issues this thread is making me think through :)

Also fine if you are bigger that should be fine but I hate it when people say a 'real' woman is only whatever size and skinny isnt natural. It is for some people and I dont think people make that distinction. I have no body image issues and am very slim. I know I look nice and I have never been on a diet. Its just natural for me. I do think its silly though when some people say you must starve yourself, what do you eat etc. Some people are just a natural tiny size.

I have never shaved my legs if you do then your hair grows back coarser and stumblier. Its a big mistake to do it in the first place cause it wont be soft.

I've been lurking. I have never been mega groomed although I have often wished I had the skill. I used to only wear make up on nights out. As I get older I feel more pressure to wear it for some reason.

I don't shave my legs in the winter, I hate doing it and dh doesn't care but I wouldn't have the nerve to show them in public.

Thinking about this thread I noticed that when I had a meeting with my boss who basically scares me and is known to be a bully I felt the need to dress up, put make up on etc. It felt like a protection thing.

I feel sad that I have spent so much of my life hating the way I look. I would love to change that somehow.

typo in second line, should say 'not really surprising'

thinking about Allegra's posts towards the end of the first threads:

it's not realise surprising someone who is well-groomed gets a lot of approbation from other women; part of it I think it because grooming is actually pretty difficult - there is an art to it.
I was in an art gallery briefly today and there was a very beautifully dressed woman in a lovely 50s dress with perfect make-up, hair and shoes, very retro and glossy. I enjoyed looking at her. Seeing her in amongst all the art objects made it clear what was going on: she was an art object too, she had turned herself into one and I admired her skill.
Could this maybe be the germ of a way to feel better about rejecting these practices: you do not want to be an art object all the time; sometimes you want to be yourself, even if you are a skilled artist.
(Reminds me of my nephew aged about 4 when we went to a sculpture park with an Antony Gormley cast of a man on a pillar. My brother and I explained the process of full-body casting to my nephew and we must have failed to explain all the stages properly because a look of horror came over him: 'But what if he doesn't want to be a statue? What if he doesn't want to stand on a pillar all the time?')
TBH it is probably also the case that if you are a good groomer you can drop some of the aspects of grooming and still take a pride in doing well the ones you decide to keep, because if you are good at this thing overall you are probably also better than the average at any one aspect.

Garlicbutter - one thing I had not expected is the knock-on effect on how one views one's appearance as a whole.
I thought legs were just about legs, but it turns out starting with your legs (or your make-up or hair dye or heels or whatever makes most sense to you) can then change the way you view other bits of your body.
freaky huh?!

Yep, it's personal. People are discussing the things they personally are doing and seeing how it is going for them.

We do lots more to progress feminism too. This thread isn't the sum total of our efforts.

I'd suggest reading the OP's messages on the original thread that explain both the premise and give some reading suggestions.

Lurker alert... haven't read whole of last thread. How can you define resisting femininity? I rarely wear heels, full make-up, "do" my hair etc. but usually have shaved legs and armpits. I 100% think I would prefer a society in which the norm was for natural hairiness but I feel more comfortable and confident shaven.

So what items on the beautifying agenda can we forego to resist femininity and which are ok to do while resisting femininity? I think it's so personal and we are so entirely culturally conditioned that we cannot possibly see this objectively.

I think it would be amazing if we could find a way to make the next generation of females (and males) comfortable in their own skin without feeling pressurised to fulfil a societal expectation of beauty. However I'm not sure this will be achieved by reinforcing the idea of feminists being an "other" type of woman who doesn't shave her legs.

That's not to say you guys should start shaving your legs, just that, well, what else can we do that might be more effective in furthering the feminist cause?

tortilla - what you said about finding it easier to love random bits of your body - me too. I'm starting to actually quite like my tummy, which is definitely not flat. Because I am 39 and have 3 children ffs, so why should my tummy be flat, I mean it's physically possible but only by either being underweight or doing deliberate exercises.

oh Alice, no, we might get feminism a bad name!

My post was in response to another one earlier.

bunbaker - I'm currently wearing a skin-tight tshirt with sequins on and a fair bit of cleavage showing, nice form-fitting jeans, D&G glasses with diamantes on the side, nicely brushed long hair, a touch of mascara. Oh, and hairy legs and armpits. Why assume that if we have hairier bodies than you then we must therefore dress in hessian sacks and look like we've been pulled through a hedge backwards? Perhaps you might want to examine your reasons for assuming one goes with the other and what that says about the assumptions society has about how women should be: that's sort of what we have been doing for a good 1000+ posts now.

Shall I speed things up a bit by mentioning we also carry out the perverse activity of touching men's legs?

hi all, thanks for starting new thread, Garlicbutter!
I can't believe it is still going so strongly, it's amazing.
sorry I haven't been around this w/e, laptop has a virus and has had to be sent to laptop hospital.

my report on how it's going: legs are still unshaven, no desire to change that. (DH is a bit so I have helpfully suggested he might want to join in by shaving something men don't usually shave, or having a go with my makeup, but he's not keen.)
I am starting to look balefully at the high-heeled shoes in my wardrobe from work days; high heeled shoes just feel so silly to me these days I might just chuck them. (Or perhaps burn them, just to give the people who think we are loony bra burners something to talk about.)

I still like my Good Bras and keep buying dresses. Dresses are fun, plus I think 40s tea dresses look best with hairy legs, kind of properly authentic. All those women doing burlesque in Victorian corsets should take this on board.

anyway the main thing is.... I dunno, just feeling less guilty about not doing all the stuff I don't do and have never done. Eg when I get dressed to go into town, in my lovely dresses, I don't think 'oh dear, what a pity I am letting myself down by not also having lovely shoes!' I'm finding it easier to focus on what does look good about me.
So I'm not exactly thinking less about my appearance, but I'm feeling better about it. Which is not what I expected.

I am totally inspired by all the people who have posted on this thread saying 'well I never do x y and z anyway.' All these people who don't wear make-up! wow!