Resisteing feminity 2

swallowedafly I am naturally thin (5 foot 3 7 stone 3). I have mcdonalds every day I work at lunch. I mainly eat fatty foods eg. crispy pancakes, waffles, chicken nuggets, turkey dinosaurs, pizza,breaded mushrooms etc. I never eat salads ever and never have done. That makes up a large proportion of my diet. I buy all the junk from iceland, drink cider lots at the weekend etc. It isnt true that skinny people starve themselves or dont eat fatty foods. I am a mumsnets worse nightmare when it comes to foods I eat My mum is in her 50s and she can eat what she likes and is same as all my family. Its just in your genes. I do move around a lot though eg. constantly I cant sit still even when on the computer!

I have heard all the prejudices about skinny people eg I must not eat, must not eat junk, must make myself sick etc. Its rude and untrue. I think people say very intrusive things to naturally skinny people they would never say to larger people.

Blackcurrants I loved your 11.58 post.
You have got to buy yourself some clothes that fit that you like, though. Only having nice clothes that don't fit has got to be one of the most effective ways to make you feel shit about your body.

I wasn't saying that I don't believe some people are "naturally slim" - my mother ate whatever she wanted til she was 40 and never went above 9 stone (at 5'7") and she was not especially active - in fact if she wasn't walking the dog she drove EVERYWHERE!

In fact I was thinking about this recently - I think my metabolism is actually pretty okay, I didn't moderate what I ate at all for three years after discovering the whole "health at every size" thing and I still didn't go over 10st. On the other hand I once did WW religiously for a year in my late teens, went swimming, jogging etc. and I never got below 8.5 stone and wasn't what you'd call slim.

The "set point" theory seems pretty likely to me - you have a weight range of 20-30lb or so, that your appetite will tend to keep you within and you would have to make a big effort to go lower or higher than this range.

It's because you haven't met me, SwallowedAfly. I eat like a horse (and very unhealthily at times, as I eat exactly what I please). I have three children and am closer to 40 than 30. I lost all my pregnancy weight and more besides breastfeeding, although I made no conscious effort to do so, and in fact I ate so much cake and chocolate in the first few months I'm amazed I didn't swell up to triple my size!

I don't go to the gym or do any kind of organised exercise, but I do walk everywhere (I don't drive at all and I rarely use public transport). This really is a lot of walking. Since having ds2, I have also been doing physiotherapy with him (he has hypotonia). I put him on a mat and take his body through the exercises. He is only 15 months old, so as yet not too big and heavy for me! That is the extent of my physical exercise, and I have never been on a diet in my life. Yet I am slim. Is it the walking? Or is that cancelled out by my unhealthy eating? Or am I naturally slim? That's what I think.

blackcurrants you sound like you have your head screwed on, that's where I'm trying to get to.

Thanks for your kind words garlicbutter :)

(sorry, that was more musing and rambling than actual coherence. My mother, very caught up in the oldschool 'fat indicates a weak character ruled by gluttony and sloth' mentality, pulled me aside at christmas and hissed that I absolutely had to lose weight because I was enormous and at risk of heart disease and diabetes and did I really want to look like that... I'm an 18 at the moment, a 16 when I just putter along, and a 14 after 6 months of Weight Watchers and doing hard aerobic exercise for 2 hours every day. That experience, (before my wedding - guess what I'd been told by my mother?!) made me realise that actually, my body's "default" shape was probably a 14/16, and was NEVER going to be a 12/14 unless I got really, really ill. And I was ok with that!) My objections to dieting are pretty feminist AND pragmatic - they don't work in the long term, and why should I have to shrink my self to take up less space, because the sight of my flesh offends other eyes? I like being fit and strong, but I refuse to try and look like ANYONE's idea of pretty. HAH!

Ahem. Sorry. Mother v. messed up about food and bodies in general. I'm offering DS solids atm and trying to work out how not to mess him up about food while I'm at it!

Hello everyone - this is a fascinating thread, brill original idea, and I am watching and reading with interest.
I already don't wear makeup, only wear skirts and dresses when it's very hot, and don't mani/pedi or blow dry my hair unless it's cold. I don't shave my legs all winter long (very long, where I live) but I do think I'd shave them before putting on my first skirt of summer.

That said, this thread has made me think. Last year I was PG through one of the hottest summers on record (live in USA) and went days without shaving legs or whatever, and didn't bloody care. It felt fabulous and - since I was IMMENSELY pg - I felt pretty damn "feminine" too! It's odd - even when I was the size of a house I felt soo powerful "See me create life! ROOAAR!" - and I've been much more confident in and proud of my body since then. Even though I am fat fat fat.

I'm too thin for some of my immediate post-birth clothes, and too fat for my 2- years-ago summer clothes. I had been putting off buying anything and vaguely planning to starve myself back into my stuff, and now I think I might just allow myself a couple of cheap shirts and cardis and a pair of capris that I really, really like. And then take it from there. I like my body, damnit, I'm not going to punish it for anyone. I might lovingly take it to some yoga classes and slowly build up some strength, flexibility, and stamina - but my body's done a lot for me over the years, and it's given me DS, and I refuse to hate how it's changed.

sethstarkaddersmackerel - mainly because of Nena and her 99 Red Balloons!

I am going to post about weight/body image now and then I will stop filling up the thread!

I find the increasingly narrow perameters of what is an acceptable body shape for a woman exceedingly depressing - very low body fat with large breasts, a curve to the hips and a rounded bottom is a rare type, but increasingly seems to be the only one held up as desirable. I also get depressed by the "real women"/"naturally thin" crap that I hear on an almost daily basis.

You are still a "real woman" if you have very small breasts and/or are very slim.
Beautiful women are not necessarily "thick", "bitches" or vacuous.
You cannot believe that "some people are just naturally thin" if you will not also accept that some are naturally chubby! If we all vary in height and shape then why would we not vary in muscle mass and body fat levels? Food and exercise obviously plays a part but it is NOT the case that everyone would be the same size if they ate the same food and did the same exercise.

Exercise is a big problem for women. We are only encouraged to do it to stay/become slim. I endure aerobics DVDs alone in the front room to try and keep my weight down. My DP plays football and cricket with his friends for fun.
I did enjoy team sports at school but as an adult cannot find anywhere to play them or anyone to play them with. The teams that are around play at a much higher standard than I ever could, I just want to run around and have a laugh.
The craze for Zumba seems like it may be a bit more positive, I know several women who go and they really enjoy the classes. They are all "larger" ladies too.

I have done a lot of reading around size acceptance. I believe wholeheartedly that your weight says nothing about your personality or morality. I do not care how thin or fat you are. If I go somewhere I don't know anyone I will choose to approach someone who looks friendly or like-minded, whether they be size 6 or size 30.

HOWEVER I cannot make this apply to myself. I am trying and have come a long way in the last few years, but I still judge myself by standards I would not apply to anyone else. I am 5'3" and wear a 12/14. My body fat is too high to be healthy but otherwise there is nothing wrong with me. I can't let go of the belief that I am somehow not good enough because I am not thin. I was bullied relentlessly from 5-16 for being "fat" (I was the chubbiest girl in my class but with the benefit of hindsight I was nothing like fat) and my parents put me on diets from the age of 8, perhaps this is why I can't quite shake this nonsense. I want to try for my DD's sake, I would hate for her to grow up with the same misery I did.

I have posted another thread where I talk about wanting to "transform" myself for a social event. I'm not proud of it but there will be people there who have hurt me in the past and I feel that I need to lose weight to be confident in front of them. It's such bollocks! I hate myself for being so weak really.

Yes, anyway, that'll do pig innit :) If anyone actually read it all have a and a , I'm going to!

'I feel quite sexy with underarm hair, I think that's because I associate it with being intellectual and European! '

I read some of the original thread and I do find this so interesting - trying to untangle my own feelings on this and reading how others feel.

So much collective time and energy is wasted due to the pressures to "perform" femininity, and discomfort/pain endured - from the rags and rollers my grandmothers wore to bed, to the normalisation of plastic surgery today.

(I do see this being gradually extended to men now too, as making people feel they aren't good enough is such a great marketing tool! but enough about teh menz.)

I'd agree that removal of body hair, makeup and the elaborate colouring and dressing of hair are entirely unnecessary. However my dad is a bit of a dandy and I cannot shake off a belief that cleanliness and a certain level of neatness are essential. He would never leave the house unless he had washed, cleaned his teeth and combed his hair, and he's passed that on to me. My mum rarely wore makeup when I was a child and didn't colour or spend lots of time styling her hair, but she too was always clean, if not quite as anal about some of the details of grooming as me or my dad (mum will wear sandals with chipped old nail varnish, dry skin on show - I NEVER would, I just wouldn't! Mind you she wouldn't wear a skirt with hairy legs, but I would.)

I notice things like nails - often I meet people who are beautifully dressed, hair styled and made up to perfection, but they have dirty nails or shoes that haven't been heeled. I am rarely beautifully dressed and I have "Irish" hair but I would be mortified if I had dirty nails and wouldn't wear a pair of shoes that needed cobbling.

My body hair is fair and fine textured so perhaps that is why I have never felt obliged to remove it, though from the age of about 12 I have enjoyed stroking my newly shaved/waxed legs. I feel quite sexy with underarm hair, I think that's because I associate it with being intellectual and European! Bikini area, well I did used to get Brazilian waxes and I found the lack of hair underneath very comfortable, especially during my periods (am a mooncup devotee and the combination of using the cup and having very little pubic hair made periods much less of a trial) but after the first time I asked for the front to be left alone, I felt less feminine without the "triangle".

I love makeup, clothes and experimenting with hair, but I usually just brush my hair and clip it out of my eyes and wear jeans and a top with flat shoes or ugg boots. I wear mascara most days but I certainly don't mind being seen without it. For work I wear more makeup (mascara, kohl, powder, blush, tinted lip balm) and take more care with my hair, but we are expected to look "smart". Also I have always looked young for my age and feel that makeup makes me look a bit more mature.

I can't believe I've rambled on for so long and not got to the weight thing yet! jayzus.

If anybody wants to critique my thinking on this please feel free, I only have a couple of friends who are feminists and don't often get to discuss this stuff.

oh well done SaF! Good luck.

I can see the connection - thinking more about your inside than your outside, your actual state of health as opposed to how you look.
The opposite would be women who smoke to help themselves avoid eating, like a lot of models supposedly do.

oh sorry x-post, thanks dittany.

I'm an idiot and have worked it out, at least this page is now bookmarked again.

Dittany I'm being stupid here but how did you link to that Killing Me Softly 3, want to post it to my facebook page. TIA

yes, you totally don't have to do hairy legs if that's not what makes sense to you.

Just thinking about the comment 'the hairy legs thing plays so easily into the hands of those that would stereotype feminists'.
See, I think we can turn it round and see this as a good thing: if people outside feminism want to see hairy legs as a badge that denotes a feminist, then doing something that makes you look like a stereotypical feminist will also demonstrate that you are not ashamed to be seen as a feminist.
It's quite a liberating moment when you realise you don't care.

I have been underweight and overweight. My mother was annorexic and food was a big deal in our house. She still makes me food and gives to me with the tag line 'Don't eat all of that, that's massive, but if you want to eat it all then you go ahead' then stands there and watches me while she eats nada. I have no concept of what normal eating is but now I have a dd I have got to sort it out.

The only way for me to be the size I feel I should be is to undereat and over exercise so I can't go back to that. I gave up the scales for a start. I want to eat well and exercise well and live in a healthy body. I want that in my head but I can't stop feeling ashamed of my body just now. It's so wired in me and I am not sure how I can rewire if you like. I really believe feminism is the key for me with this though. It helped me in another area of my life where I really believed one thing and feminism helped me to internalise a change in my thinking.