Resisteing feminity 2

oh seth, that is so funny. confidence is sexy, hairy legs or no, whatever the veet manufacturers try and tell us.

i still haven't cut my hair (am skint). but intend to as soon as payday hits. tomorrow is my last day at work, so i feel like i'm having a bit of a readjustment. have spent forever quite deliberately ignoring my boss twittering about my trousers and clogs

at SSM in wolfwhistle conflict!

And Studland beach is it Tortilla? Planning a wild swimming break on the Dorset coast and love the feel of nude swimming :)

I got wolf-whistled on the way to pick dd up from after-school club

this hasn't happened for years.

I don't think it is coincidence - I was probably thinking 'Yay, I look so amazing in my dress with my hairy legs'.

I'm not sure this is what I hoping for when I started the thread though....

So the only comment on my appearance today in M&S was one woman who came up to me and said 'nice dress' :) All other comments were directed at cooing DD. So if you want to go out in public with hairy legs but are a teensy bit scared, just take a baby as your decoy

Ormirian - love your story. I look and feel a fright when running, but it's wirth it for that high you get when you've finished your run. I'm not sure I feel beautiful, but a good run does give me a little bit of that feeling I got from giving birth to DD - being in awe of your body and completely aware of every bit of it and what it can do when you put your mind to it.

I thought of this thread tonight when I was sneered at by a bevy of well-groomed teens teetering along the pavement into town. I was red-faced, sweaty and if they had got close they'd realised I was smelly too . but I had just run 3 miles, I was feeling strong, empowered and really pleased with myself! I'd rather have been in shoes (sweaty as they were) than theirs. I felt so beautiful - muscles taut and strong, heart beating.

Some women just don't wear makeup, under any circumstances. I know one who went to a wedding that way, and she was the bride. Nobody said a word, and why should they? She looked like her usual self.

I like the one leg shaved one leg not idea, but the bride might think you're trying to steal the limelight!

Musing on the "disrespectful to show hairy legs at a wedding" thing, I suppose men cover their (hairy) legs for weddings, either with trousers or kilt and long socks. I haven't even seen men at beach weddings in shorts...

I could always shave one leg and leave the other hairy and see which one gets more appreciative stares

seth - sandals are your friend. They're the only way of getting sufficient air to your feet to avoid odours. Those footsie tight things are just uncomfortable and to be avoided at all costs. But of course then that leads onto the question of whether you need a pedicure or not... :)

Not much suspense here. I will be shaving them for Saturday, I am pretty certain. I just don't think I can leave them. Something in my head equates special occasions with blow-drying my hair properly, wearing make-up, putting on high heels and shaving my legs - all those things I don't consider necessary for day to day life. Funny, isn't it? I will be leaving my nipple hairs though which, given I will be breastfeeding and DD is going through the lift up mummy's top to give everyone an eyeful phase, will probably be on public display :o

ooh I like a bit of drama and suspense on a thread.
Will Tortilla go to the wedding with hairy legs or not? Will anyone notice? Will she go but take a razor in her handbag and nip into the ladies' and shave halfway through the reception?

fwiw I've just been into town in a knee length dress with hairy legs but I was wearing nude tights, so it's not quite the same.
I was thinking I need some shoes I can wear with a dress without tights without my feet going smelly so I can show off my legs properly without creating offensive odours.

Sorry - that was long, and I'm not entirely sure it was well thought through either! I'm musing on weight/health a lot at the moment and not quite sorted through all my thoughts yet.

To get back to the very original point of this thread, I've just been sorting out my outfit for a wedding on Saturday. And I sat there thinking 'should I shave my legs or not?' I'm wearing a short dress. And the thought that popped into my head as 'It's a wedding. It would be a bit disrespectful not to'. WTF??? It's a bit crazy when someone supposedly as level-headed as me thinks turning up to a wedding with unshaven legs on show is disrespectful. Unusual, yes, but not sure I can sensibly label it disrespectful... And of course the bride and groom will be too excited to notice my legs anyway! But no doubt I will feel it is one of the few occasions where I should shave them and will do so. As it happens, I am wearing a short dress (love summer!) with hairy legs now and will probably be venturing out to M&S and then to collect DS from nursery later - will report back on whether anyone notices! :o

I just don't believe that everyone who is 'naturally thin' is not controlling it in some way, any more than I believe that everyone who is 'well built' or has it 'in their genes' doesn't have an issue with food or exercise. But equally nor do I believe that you automatically have an eating disorder/exercise obsession if you are 'naturally slim'. Some people are naturally slim and some are naturally well-built, but many that use those terms to hide (from themselves? from others?) an issue with food or exercise. It is crazy that at the same time as having a society obsessed with size zero and increasing diagnoses of eating disorders, we also have a burgeoning obesity problem.

I think it comes back to somebody saying downstream that probably size 10-14 is the range in which most women would naturally fall if they had a healthy attitude to food and exercise - got on with both without really thinking about either, I guess! The women with the healthiest attitude to food and exercise that I know are probably a size 12. My friends who obsess on Facebook about their bum being big or going on a diet are invariably a size 10 or a size 16! Why the hell does a size 10 woman feel the need to restrict calories or exercise more just to get into a smaller pair of jeans? A size 16+ woman might need to lose weight for her health (I am one of those) but hardly any size 10 woman would need to lose weight to improve her health, and in fact is risking her health by doing so. Yet she will be praised by everyone for getting to a size 8, for looking great etc. And so the 'ownership' of her body by others continues, and so the myth that the thinner you are the happier you are continues, and so more and more women are forced by society to diet. But if women aren't forced to 'diet' then we seem to think that the opposite of that is being allowed to get fat. But women aren't allowed to get fat either. So we all hate ourselves and fight our bodies and our urges and hence start to obsess about them and hate ourselves even more...

I want to get to a point where I eat and I exercise and I don't think about them any more than I think about going to the loo - I want them to just be a natural process, not something I have to obsess about.

So I'm off to have a salad for lunch, followed by a nice piece of aforementioned buttery madeira cake, and will try not to obsess about either :o

But you see it's right there!

"'well built' and 'it's her genes' are used a lot to excuse overeating/underexercising."

Therefore you must also be of the view that "naturally thin" is an excuse for undereating/overexercising?

Personally I believe that food intake and exercise are very important in terms of an individual's weight, but I am CONVINCED that a large minority of slightly underweight people would have to force down a few extra potatoes at every mealtime and constantly feel uncomfortably full, and a large minority of slightly overweight people would have to cut their food intake back to a level where they are constantly hungry, in order to fit into the societally accepted "okay weight" box - there is definitely a natural predisposition to your muscle mass, how you store fat etc.

Further to that, I don't give a toss if you've eaten nothing but cup-a-soup since 1986 to stay six and a half stone, or if you eat three Mars bars every day to stay fourteen stone - it's NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

Unfortunately advertisers and the media make it their business, because then they can sell you stuff, the patriarchy (for want of a better word) can use it to keep women and the proles down.

redvelvet - 'well built' and 'it's her genes' are used a lot to excuse overeating/underexercising.

ah, redvelvet, i think i was equally critical of both in one of my posts : "Many 'naturally slim' people have become a size 6 by eating nothing and going to the gym, and many size 20s have done so by eating everything and not getting off their backsides and then claim it's their genes or that they're well built"

And then illustrated it with DH's ex-girlfriend ('naturally slim' who actually restricted her diet a lot to be that) and me (eats like a horse but doesn't exercise like one). Neither is a healthier approach than the other, but people would think that the ex-gf is healthier than me because she looks closer to the 'ideal' body shape. She might be healthier, but not necessarily. As it is, I won't swap buttery home-made madeira cake for a green salad with a fat-free dressing, so I'm learning how to shift those calories with exercise. Ran with the buggy yesterday in the heat, and nearly killed myself

Completely agree with you about how my body is nobody's property except myself and nobody should feel they have a right to comment. It does amaze me how we try to teach our daughters that their body is their own and if anybody does something to it without their consent that it is wrong, yet think nothing of casual comments about fat/thin/ugly/beautiful/badly dressed/badly made-up/hairy women or forcing our daughters to wear pink/dresses/hairclips against their will. How mixed up is that? I am guilty of it - but with this thread I am learning not only to love myself but to embrace everyone else's differences and not judge them by society's/my standards. After all, how can I expect not to be judged, if I go around judging?

Bah, I should really preview before I post. That sounds a lot meaner than it was supposed to!

I was trying to reiterate my earlier point about "naturally thin" being an accepted reason for being underweight whereas there is no such equivalent in the popular mind for being a few pounds over.

Why can't we all just be nice to each other, etc [despairs, goes to make a cup of tea]

Just to illustrate my point about a double standard, people are posting about themselves or people they know that "can't put on weight", but nobody has appeared on the thread saying "eat more and move less calories in calories out" etc, have they? I can guarantee if someone posted the opposite the fat police would be out in force.

I was once on a thread where someone said she couldn't lose weight while she was breastfeeding and loads of people piled on basically saying she wasn't trying hard enough or insinuating she was lying about her diet and exercise.

I'm not sure where the idea that nobody verbally abuses fat people comes from either...one of my friends is a size 22 and I can assure you that people do feel perfectly free to be fucking vile to her - shouting insults out of passing cars or groups of people oinking/mooing are particular favourites.

I have a friend I've known since preschool who is very very slim and I do understand that she would like to be bigger, and I have heard nasty remarks about her size.

What it comes down to is that women's* bodies are NOT public property, open to comment by the world and his wife, and my understanding is that choosing to "resist femininity" is an attempt to demonstrate that.

*Yes, I know that men can be judged on their appearance too, but generally speaking a man's looks are much less relevant to pretty much every area of his life, and this is a discussion about femininity.

swallowed my mum is actually medium framed, she was a "model" type build, never needed a bra, long slender legs - think it's the legs that made her so light IYSWIM, I have a friend who is only five foot tall and a very toned size 8 but she weighs 9.5 stone! I couldn't believe it but she got on the scales and proved it - she has very "sturdy" muscular legs though (can't wear jeans as they don't go past her knees) and they must weigh a lot.

Noodle that's awful about people saying things to you about being thin.

interesting about your dh and filling his pockets with pennies for the weighing.

I have always felt the same about different people liking different shapes; most of the time people seem to go out with people who are like them so I always thought you shouldn't be worried as there would be someone like you to get off with no matter what size or shape you are. I'm sure it is not 100% as simple as that but people of all shapes and sizes certainly do seem to find partners.

I once upset a boyfriend by making a comment (which was not meant to be a nasty one) about him being thin - I thought 'thin' was always positive and hadn't realised men could feel sensitive about not being bulky enough. Later on I went out with a man who used to wear three t-shirts to bulk himself up and hated the summer because he was too hot in his three t-shirts (this should be on the other thread really....)

This thread is so interesting. If I'm really honest, I think I've been guilty in the past of judging women on how they look on occasion, but since I've been looking more into feminism I've been examining my own prejudices a lot more carefully. This thread takes it a little further for me - I wish I could be as brave as you lot, I would love to stop shaving everything as it's a dull waste of time that I seem to do purely so my DH will find me more sexually attractive and I won't get judged by other people in the summer. And that's wrong really isn't it? But I'm not there yet - too much of a wuss. Maybe I will get brave if I read a bit more.

I havent got body dysmorphia my legs are actually really, really teeny. Even whilst pregnant they about as skinny as a 13 year olds, if not smaller. I like them now but I just used to hate everyone drawing attention to it when I was younger as I couldnt really help it. I never used to think about whether someone was small or large or their weight but it was all some people ever talked about at school so when they talked about me I used to find it really annoying. I realised when I left school tht when people do it its probably to do with their own issues with food/weight but back then I didnt really see it like that.

My husband had to fill his pockets with bags of pennies when he joined the forces as they told him he wasnt the right weight so he had to fill up with those bags of pennies in his trackies to get in! Its weird I suppose cause I was a girl the man said I was underweight but they just allowed me to join anyway.

I think with the skinny thing its much worse for a man not to be able to put on weight as I have known quite a few men that feel they 'should' be a lot bigger when to me it never really mattered and some people go for bigger/smaller bodied men. I find slim build men really attractive but I have friends that love the big body builder type and all types in between. If women have all types of preferences in men, then I am sure men are the same to women. Also you always notice things on yourself others dont. My husband said to me months after we first got together when I slept with you I was embarrassed about my body being too small, skinny and about other little imperfections etc and I think how silly because I didnt notice or even register any of the things he pointed out. The same goes for the other way round I would say if a man cares about you.

my body is in all likelihood the worst its ever looked but i'm at my most comfortable and accepting of it i've ever been

Pretty much a yes from me saf! It's not the fattest it's been - that was 10 years ago - but I was younger then so could probably carry it a bit better and it hadn't been bruised and battered by two children by then! I'm 34 too, but still don't wear shorts because of my burger knees :). Bloody hate my knees - they are the one thing I would genuinely still swap. I think pretty much everything else I am happy with or learning to be happier with, but my knees are my weak spot. Does anybody on here genuinely love every little last bit of their body? I do pretty well at loving imperfections what with my fondness for my rogue 3 cheek hairs and learning to love the red angioma on my arm (as mentioned previously), and I can quite happy look at my big slightly saggy boobs and rounded tummy and big bum in the mirror and feel quite proud of my curves, but I would really rather not look at my knees. Sllly, isn't it?

I do frequent naturist beaches though whenever the possibility arises. I tell you what - getting your kit off on a beach is completely liberating and it should be tried. Not only do you get to feel the warm air on your bits, which is divine, but you see other naked people and realise that a) nobody has a perfect body and b) it doesn't really bother you or them. And naturist beaches are often some of the best we have in this country - viz Studland in Dorset and Holkham in Norfolk. Bliss!

I am happy with what I look like now but when I was younger women used to come up to my in the street or just random strangers and say 'you need a good meal', ''do you eat' 'do you make yourself sick' ' you look like you will snap' etc. It doesnt bother me now but it did a bit when I was younger and school aged. Women still do it now if I dont know them well and it doesnt make me feel bad now but I find it really embarassing. Even now I go out of my way to eat in front of people and it probably contributes to my love of junk food. I would never be seen eating a salad else I know some people would comment.

I dont even look unhealithily skinny and have had big boobs for my size since 16. I just have very slim arms and legs. My brother has had all the same comments though in the past and it effected him more as he is a boy and not 'meant' to be slim. He is a little bigger now but he used to wear 3 tops to work and he still only will go out in a jumper now regardless of the heat cause of it.