Resisteing feminity 2

Noodle you are right, your mother's attitude has a huge influence, there is Research on that and everything.
I read about a study recently that said that the girls who grow up with the least anxiety about their bodies aren't actually the ones whose mothers are always telling them they're beautiful, they're the ones whose mothers never really mention appearance at all.

I actually find it rather fascinating that you can take a para out of the context of Bidisha's splendid feminist rant and it comes across as anti-woman. I wonder if there are some feminists whose writing you can easily do that with and others you can't.

Oh bugger, I completely mis-represented myself there with a very poor choice of words. I didn't mean 'like' in the way it comes across at all, what I meant to say is that I found the quote a succinct summary of grooming issues this corner of MN has made me question, that I hadn't really thought about before. It is definitely an over dramatic summary (Stockholm syndrome!), but I have always been drawn to the extremes of any argument.

I'm don't think the points the author makes with regard to pubic waxing are new, they were made when the whole Hollywood/Brazilian thing first hit the news a few years ago. What I think makes the article contemporary is that this 'extreme waxing' is no longer rare, in fact in some circles - and I am not referring to pornographic ones - it is the norm.

With regard to choice of words, I actually think that the phrase "buy into" suggests an active choice and I am depressing coming to the conclusion that most women, including myself until recently, consider the need to pluck, wax, adorn, etc, the default option. By that I mean it's just something you do, like wearing deodorant or brushing your teeth.

I'm still not expressing myself very well, questioning such ingrained beliefs after years of practice is almost overwhelming. The more I uncover the more brainwashed I feel. The article simply seemed to summarize some of this stuff...

sorry i meant about her appearance

I think some women buy in to it as they saw the mums/female role models do it growing up. If you have never saw your mum on a diet, shave her legs, or be in any way neurotic about your appearance and she still thinks with out all that she looks nice then it means that you are less likely to do that yourself ime.

SGM - you are right she isn't saying that at all! Which is why I wondered why EenyMeenyMaya chose to quote that particular excerpt.

Really EenyMeenyMaya? You actually like that paragraph? Why is that?

Bit of a lurker, but just read this article on the Guardian website and thought it was very apt. I particularly liked this paragraph:

"Men are not as cowed, self-hating, obedient or biddable as women in this regard. They are not going to make the effort to do anything to please a woman, at the cost of their own comfort. That is something I have always respected about men. They are busy pursuing their own happiness, leaving women to fight through the thicket of their own Stockholm syndrome, perpetually pruning their pubic hair in a desperate bid to gain approval."

I like the end quote from that article TeiTetua. Should be our motto: ?You know what?s really cool? Wake up every morning, decide what you feel like doing, and do it.? I think that encompasses what we've been talking about isn't it? Do what you feel comfortable with, not what anybody else is comfortable with you doing.

While searching for something else entirely, I got offered this article on the New York Times website, published a couple of days ago:

www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/fashion/15skin.html?_r=1

It's about showbiz women who've shown a little fur, and what people said about it.

lol at 'they've got toes and everything'!!

Engelbert - I HOPE we are still going camping, I am looking forward to it immensely.
am a bit nervous about dh though.... he thinks it will take us 3 hours to get there (which I don't believe but anyway we go to the Lakes and that is that far) and that it will be too windy but I suspect what is basically going on is that he is a bit nervous about doing stuff with my friends. He doesn't mean to be grumpy or unfriendly, but I think he finds it harder than he admits. I have GOT to be firm with him though, because since we were married we have almost always done stuff with his friends instead of mine, and much as I like his friends this can't go on.

Coming back to resisting femininity, I have found 2 main effects on me:

1. a load of guilt has lifted that I didn't even know I had - this feeling that I was not 'making the best of myself' because I wasn't working harder on my appearance.
2. oddly I think I am more vain and secretly smug about the good more patriarchy-compliant bits of my appearance. Don't know how this has happened and I'm not sure I like it. Anyone else finding this too?

alex - can you give your husband a big kiss from me? :)

Jess - you have just reminded me of something. My dh has 2 female colleagues who regularly discuss grooming at work. One day they were talking about their plans to go to a beauty salon and have various things done to them, including a pedicure. They said to him "Why don't you ring Alex and ask her if she wants to come with us?" He told them I wasn't in to all that sort of thing, but thanks all the same. "Come on," they said "she'll enjoy it! All women want to have nice feet!" His reply? "Alex has lovely feet, they've got toes and everything!"

He told me that if they hadn't drawn attention to it themselves, he would never have noticed their toenail varnish.

Hi SSAM
Yes, you're right...and what was annoying about him was that he didn't like women who were too dolled up yet he had standards that I clearly didn't meet and he felt he could comment. The woman he married wasn't into things like toenail painting. The message being there that if you make the effort you have to make it perfect in order to be deemed fit to be seen in public. The same guy also told me I was disgusting for having hair in my hair brush (shock, horror!).

It's sad though that, at the time, I didn't care and yet now I've internalized all these messages and am living by them. My ex had a lot to do with that. He didn't criticise me directly but often commented on other women who looked good-a very subtle way of training me.

It seems ime that men don't like women who are overly dolled up yet they do like a woman to take care of herself. There's a fine balance there that we have to negotiate to appear up to standard but not too over the top.

I like this thread!

it's amazing isn't it Jess? what on earth makes these men think they have the f*cking right to say these things, and why on earth we take any notice? I bet his toenails weren't perfectly pedicured and painted!

A thought I had just now...about ten years ago, a male friend told me that my toenails were disgusting and that I should sort them out (he was referring to chipped toenail polish). I was in my early 20s then and I laughed and said I didn't care.

Yet now, I can't unveil my feet without having perfect toenail polish on them. What happened to make me this self conscious?

I should be less bothered as I get older surely!

I did have a moronic ex who sapped my confidence but even so..

Sorry, please carry on! Just a random thought I had earlier after reading some of this thread.

I can't explain it. It does feel like it would attract the pejorative use of 'unshaven'. Yet I suppose men can go to weddings with beards and it no be a problem, but if they go with 3 day old stubble that is seen as a bit worse. So maybe if your legs are stubbly (i.e. you shave but haven't bothered for this occasion) that is worse than them being soft and long (i.e. you don't shave at all)

oopps - just gone further back and saw, yes, I am not the only person to have experienced the thought that 'hariy legs at wedding is disrespectful.'

Sorry, Tortilla

WTF?? - What is going on here?

Had better admit, that I have not fully kept up with this double thread, so please be patient if I have covered anything already covered up thread.
Tortilla, or anybody. Would appreciate thoughts on weddings.

I have left my legs unshaven, and has been no problem - even in dresses. But I admit that I do not work in a high powerered, even strucutred, environment so I am not subject to massive pressures.

Anyhow, there is my SOL's wedding this weekend. And - I know this sounds weired - it feels almost disrpespectful not to shave my legs. Like I couldn't be arsed to do it properly. Like the usual male meaning of the word 'unshaven'. Tortilla, have seen you just went to a wedding. What do you - or anybody else - think?