Resisteing feminity 2

I've been lurking with interest and admiration and would like to say thank you as it's helping me love my body more. I have also decided to avoid anti aging products as I will still age and it's not a bad thing. I saw a women at a biker rally on saturday and one of her patches said " Perfect as I am" and my first thought was every women should have one, especially on this thread! As a carry on does anyone else think less mainstream tribes/ lifestyles have less narrowly defined ideals of beauty.

On the makeup fraud front glad to know I am not the only one , I used to use it as dressing up ie/ turquoise sparkly eyeliner under bottom lashes and nowt else, but have been falling into habit of being sutble to " enchance" when I get round to it. Mainly because I thought I was too old to be playful, which now I think about it stems from a make over several years ago where the lovely lady gave me a list of about 20 products I needed, primer foundation, 2 fucking 2 types of concealer, highlighter, blusher all the normal eye and lip stuff. At the time I recognised she was just trying to sell me stuff and only got blusher, but it must have stuck with me on some level and is definately an example of how undermining the beauty industry can be cause I think and it's one of the random compliments I get I've got lovely skin, and foundation is never pale enough or makes my freckles look wierd

Can I add another dimension to this thread? I really hate crappy women's magazines and haven't bought them in years, since I twigged that they contain little in the way of even vaguely interesting content. If I buy a magazine now I buy Private Eye or New Scientist. I hate the way that magazines are gendered so Stuff or T3 have a half naked woman on the front to appeal to men and magazines like Wired, which appeal to me, are displayed in 'men's lifestyle'.

I may be doing badly on the physical resistance to notions of feminity (I am ashamed to say) but I have resisted (it's not hard) buying into the worlds of glossy magazines and fashion for years.

I like to think that I'm doing my own little bit to resist patronising and content lite crap aimed at women with this!

a question for any of you who have used anti-ageing products. Do they actually do anything? Or is it just an expensive placebo? I'm just curious., having never bothered with them myself.

Blackduck - the more I think about it, the angrier I get!

The annoying thing with the hairdying comment is it would never be said to a man. I am grey (very), it is hereditary (thanks dad), and whilst I have never had the you must dye it comments, I have been told I am 'brave' for not dying it. Brave ffs, I am not battling cancer, or in a warzone, I just don't dye my hair! (Can't be arsed).

SaF - I know what you mean about makeup and feeling a fraud - I did and still do so don't wear it. Similarly high heels, I feel like I have raided my mums closet.

I like the getting angry!

sAf - I just read your post again. It's so sad that you should feel shame (I mean 'you' in the sense of 'one', not just you specifically). Why should women feel ashamed? What's wrong with us that we should be made to feel that way?

The other day when that comment was made about dyeing my hair, I just tried to shrug it off (my usual response), but now I'm angry. I'm angry because it's attitudes like that which help to perpetuate the problem. Comments like that can make women feel ashamed of their appearance and embarassed about themselves, when in fact there's nothing wrong with them. I started thinking about it like this after reading your post - if I had been less confident in myself (and I always look in the mirror and think Wow! Aren't I gorgeous!) that could have really affected me, especially as it is the 3rd time hair dyeing has been mentioned to me, and expecially in conjunction with the reference to my daughter.

How dare people feel they can comment on our appearance in this way! How dare they undermine our confidence, our feeling of self worth! How dare they judge us for such trivial matters as the colour of our hair! So what if we put on a little bit of weight (and I'm sure you are not gross sAf), surely that's just a normal part of life! From now on I small make a point of challenging such comments more robustly. Time to kick this attitude down!

I do know what you mean swallowed - as I know I have 'god I am hideous' days and I have gained weight in my 30's but I honestly did feel less confident and more hideous in my teens and early twenties than I do now - even though I look at pictures of myself then and cannot understand it. As I was perfectly acceptable looking - I dressed in a way that got commented on in the street 'oi Lesbian!' was a favourite so I became quite defiant. Certainly didn't dress in a way that pleased men (it wasn't 'oi lipstick lesbian' that is).

While now I might go out for the night feeling good then look at the pictures (bloody hate facebook) and think christ what do I look like, but at the same time not really care as I have much more confidence in my self worth... hope that makes sense. I haven't classic beauty, my hair is greying, I am getting wrinkles round my eyes, I have the beginnings of varicose veins and my feet are large and v wide I am cool with that and want my daughters to have enough confidence to overcome insecurity themselves hopefully sooner than I did. Especially dd1 as it is becoming clear she is going to be a (probably)6ft amazonian type which can be hard when the pinnacle of beauty is slender and graceful but she will find her way.

bigmouth - I think there is a happy medium my mum always looks lovely and dresses feminine but she doesnt shave her legs, or spend ages on make up (eg feels like she needs loads on in order to go out), she eats what she likes but in moderation so no food issues etc.

I enjoy dressing up for going out and I think I always look nice but I think its only bad when its obsessional (like lots of women I know) eg they wouldnt dream of going out without full face on, counting calories on everything, cant be seen without tan/nails etc. Its about being happy in what you look like all the time regardless of if you are doing an outdoor activity or going to a party. I think thats one of the greatest gifts my mother has taught me. She didnt teach it me by doing anything just by being herself and hby being a strong confident person.

it's a number 9 SaF - the second longest setting on the clippers.

alex - I agree about ankles, they are great, they keep your feet on.

Bigmouth - I found that a very interesting post. My mother was also not particularly interested in appearance, though actually I think she was pretty and knew it, she just didn't consider it important. As I teenager I was clueless about clothes and it made me feel very insecure and different from everyone else, and when I finally discovered Susannah and Trinny ('What Not To Wear', especially the books) it was incredibly liberating to realise that actually all this clothes business was pretty easy, and I found myself enjoying it for the first time in my life - being totally certain about what shapes and colours suited me meant I suddenly felt free to have fun with clothes and stand out more. So in many respects I can relate to your journey.

a big part of this thread, IMO, is about separating out the fun from the burdensome.

sAf - it was actually one of dh's colleagues, who I also know socially. I went round to visit her to take a present for her baby. Perhaps she was thinking about it because the baby is a girl? I don't know. But yes, so many people seem to think they can harangue you give you the benefit of their considered opinions, no matter what your own feelings might be. Bit rude, really.

big news in the Starkadder household this morning: I've finally fulfilled a long-held ambition and got dh to do my hair with the clippers.

the whole thing was hilarious. The clippers wouldn't work and we had to take them apart, and dh was convinced a bit had come off and we were hunting round the kitchen for this imaginary bit of the clippers that turned out not to exist.
dh was in a terrible state because he hates gadgets. he was terrified. he wanted me to sign a disclaimer in case it looked awful and i blamed him.
then eventually they started to work and he got into the zone and started to realise it was actually looking quite good.

it looks fantastic. I keep catching sight of myself in the mirror and grinning. Fringe a bit short at front perhaps but that's ok.

LIBERATION!!!!!!!!!

btw - I don't mean that feminity is all about dresses and make up etc. or that the decision to reject those trappings is unnecessary - I think it is a very enlightening experience. What I mean in my earlier post is that my upbringing and particularly my Mother (gawd bless er) allowed me the space to discover what I enjoyed about the 'trappings' and reject the rest so I am never troubled by a desire for a pedicure or manicure for example and I do not really dress for men or even women - I hate being restricted by rules and so make up my own as much as possible and now I have two girls and a boy of my own it will be very interesting to see the journey my girls take. I already have one who is obsessed with make up and dresses and ballet and general pinkness which can be quite overwhelming. I hope she grows out of it and expands her interests/ colour palette.

"I am so much happier in my own skin and that is truely liberating." well that's great, bigmouth.

seth! I just showed that to dh and he laughed. He said to tell you that ankles are very helpful too, but that he'd rather you wore socks to keep them warm rather than having them on display, as you live in the uk and it's cold!

This thread has made me think about my Mother - she resisted many trappings of feminity - she never wore make up, lived in jeans and shirts tended to wear mens sandals and her hair was usually short though I do recall a terrible perm in the 80's that frightened my little brother so much he didn't want to go to her at school pick up!

She also hated her body constantly battling with weight, she did shave her legs in summer months. I learned nothing about dressing as a 'woman' from her and consquently throughout my teens and early twenties despite always loving dressing up and play acting in swirly dresses since early childhood (seduced by hollywood musicals) - I always felt like I was in drag when wearing dresses out. I wore dm's and no make up never shaving and my only vanity was my hair which as it was long and wavy and ginger I tended to spend a bit more time grooming it - while at uni I dyed it all colours of the rainbow and cut it short, great fun.

Despite or perhaps because of the fact both my parents set no store by appearence, (my Dad had no interest in clothes even wearing the bobbly lining of a jacket outdoors as a 'waistcoat' and both went for the socks and sandals look fgs). my siblings and I are all interested in our clothing now and like nice things and wear make up (well db only occasionally) I discovered clubbing and glitter in my twenties which fulfilled all my dressing up desires. And now in my lateish thirties I put on a bit of eye make and lip gloss a couple of times a week and really enjoy it.

I have gone from not understanding 'feminity' and pitying women who can't go out with a face full of slap (welll I still find that sad tbh) to embracing dressing up and putting on a dab of make up to feel good... so I don't think I will be embarking on this journey with you I feel I have been on it in reverse in a way.... I don't like the word choice as I feel it is over used and meaningless most of the time so I don't choose to wear make up so much as I am comfortable doing it now and I wasn't when I was younger. Being a teenager is horrible and uncertain and now I am so much happier in my own skin and that is truely liberating.

LMAO @ you not setting a good enough feminine example to your daughter!
I must say that hadn't crossed my mind as a reason to dye my hair.

you are setting her an excellent example. Not least by being married to a man who understands that the most important thing about feet is that they should have toes.

Yesterday I was told that I am letting myself down as a woman by not dyeing my hair to cover the grey. And that I should be setting a better feminine example to my daughter. I replied that I hoped I was teaching her to feel free to be herself and not feel that she had to look like a L'Oreal advert.