Resisteing feminity 2

Oh, it's undoubtedly an intimidation thing. I've always had attention for the height, along the harmless but never-ending lines of 'aren't you tall?' but when I put on heels the comments become more barbed, more personal: 'WHY are you wearing those?' or insinuations of drag. These comments always come from men. It's as though they accept I can't help my height - almost like they consider it a disability of some kind - but when I deliberately make myself taller, to a height at which even quite tall men are considered tall? Well, that's Just Not On!

While your thoughts on shrinking women are undoubtedly spot on, my personal notions of femininity and womanhood are bound up with my height. When I was about ten, my doctor encouraged my mother to enrol me in a programme in which I would be treated with oestrogen in order to stunt my growth. There wasn't anything particularly sinister in and of his actions (though sinister they were): he genuinely thought that being over a certain height would be, for a woman, a very real handicap; as in, I would struggle to get married, have a career, be accepted in society! He genuinely thought that stunting my height would benefit me and, at one point, gently said 'but you won't be able to wear heels, you know' (aged 10 you couldn't have got me in a dress at the point of a shotgun!). My mum left it up to me and I remember very clearly, refusing point blank to consent to anything of the sort because I simply could not see anything wrong with being tall. My dad's very tall and it looked to me to be bloody great - everyone knew him, recognised him, chatted to him. Tall was awesome! But I'm not my dad - because I'm female. And this was never in question.

So it was weird position of defending my right to be feminine AND tall AND able AND accepted and all those things. I'm rambling a bit now and might not make sense but I guess, while women are supposed to be small and dainty, being small and dainty isn't any better, in the eyes of the patriarchy, than being unnacceptably tall - even though the patriarchy maintains that small and dainty IS better, in many ways.

Even though I'm told off for my height, I'm definitely policed less than other women because physically there is little difference between me and the male bodies who get to do lots of things women 'can't' do: I've always been as tall as boys and men, so why can't I do the things they do? They walk home at night - well then, so will I (drove my mum MAD, that one - still does). They lift heavy things - well then, so can I.

Argh, I'm definitely rambling now!

Hello everybody. Keep meaning to join this thread, have lurked here and there and love reading it.

I live in France and I'm at that time of year when I have to decide whether to remove my leg hair or not. I leave it, and underarm hair, quite happily all winter but tend to conform in spring/summer. The slim, smooth, chic, ultra feminine, French women would think I was bonkers if I went out with hairy legs.

I suspect friends of mine would feel the need to have a word with me about 'letting myself go' and so on.

They already think I'm most odd because I don't dye my greying hair and almost never wear make-up.

I've lurked on here for ages, but wanted to add my twopenneth.

I'm a tall (over six foot) woman and as such, have always had (and have been forced to have) a fairly elastic relationship with femininity. I frequently had to wear male clothing, because women's clothes were wrongly proportioned; people constantly mistake me for a man, particularly if I have short hair. I don't have a particularly high percentage of body fat but I freqently have to buy plus-size clothing, for the length.

Overall, this has benefited me immensely, and certainly has informed my feminist beliefs from an extremely young age. I've always played with femininity because the size of my body means that I had to. I appreciate that I'm exceedingly fortunate that my parents, immediate family, and close friends never, ever, called my female-ness into question because my body did not and does not fit the prescriptions of femininity.

Because those who do like to call my womanhood into question are inevitably wankers, I sometimes like to whack on a pair of sky-high heels for the evening, mostly for the consternation that it seems to cause them. Bwaaahahahahahaha!

I meant "does" not "has"; incomplete editing there.

Has anyone else get the double meaning of "trappings of femininity"?

talking of haircuts, we saw a hairdresser recently called something like 'His and kidz' which said it did men and children. I wonder what they would do if a woman went in - presumably it would be sex discrimination for them to refuse.

I've read through this thread over the last day and it's brilliant.
I'll read the first one tonight when I've got a bit more time.

My hair had been getting long and was doing my head in, so I bobbed it to about chin length and don't have to do anything but stick a hairpin in the front to keep it out of my eyes. I would love to get it cropped or clippered but I'm v. big and would look unwell/bedlam patient.
Saf, I've seen your pic (facebook) and your hair looks great.
I've also decided not to bother dying my greys out, at least for now.

I cut my hair myself. It used to enrage me that me and DH would both get our hair cut, by the same stylist, and his would cost £10 and mine would cost £30 despite his cut taking twice as long.

I've been thinking about what trappings of femininity restrict women's movement or other abilities, like the high heels at the zoo, and the mini skirt you can't bend over in.
Long fingernails.
Maxi dresses/skirts.
Tight skirts you can't stride in.
Long hair.
Jewellery that gets in the way or is dangerous.
I was thinking how the more feminine a woman is, the less she is expected to do. Princesses etc. Chinese foot binding that meant the women had to be carried.
Rapunzel for instance was imprisoned in a tower and kept away from the rest of society because of her very long hair.

Bit of a stream of conscious ramble there, some thoughts anyway.

Blimey - maybe I'm just cold-blooded? I do put a top on on the coldest winter nights, and the heating is on overnight once or twice in the winter, but otherwise it's me and a 15 tog duvet (7 in summer).

saf - there aren't that many days true, but any day where you'd be warm enough in a swimsuit or bikini is a day you could be naked as they aren't really known for their thermal properties (and the post swim sogginess actually means you're colder than if you were naked) :)

SGM - a good suncream and sunhat, and a sun shelter for the hot part of the day, solves most pink issues :)

I'm the naked beach devotee. I've not yet crossed the final frontier of socialising naked - was invited to a British Naturist event once while lounging on a beach in the buff but just couldn't do it - small talk in the buff feels wrong to me. So daft of me, when you consider that I'm happy to be naked and so are they.

Having said that, we'll be in north Norfolk in mid-August so if you want to try it on one of the most beautiful beaches in the country (Holkham) but need to know somebody else will be there being naked and somewhat hairy then that's your chance

It is the most wonderful feeling on a hot day to get your clothes off and just wander free of any encumbrances feeling the warm breeze on your body. And it is so much nicer drying almost instantaneously from a swim rather than festering in a piece of soggy lycra for ages. If you try it once, you will probably do it many times. I started with going topless but that felt too titillating actually (all a bit Page 3 given my massive breasts) - going completely clothing free felt much less sexual and hence bizarrely much more comfortable. So don't equate it to being topless but more so if you've done that - it is actually a very different experience.

If you're intrigued, try sleeping naked first. I haven't worn clothes in bed in 10 years and it is heavenly not getting pyjama bottoms all rucked up or having to adjust nighties as you roll over. And then try wandering around naked a bit maybe while getting your morning cuppa. And then head to a deserted beach somewhere and just strip off and see if anyone bats an eyelid. They probably won't :)

IIRC, there's a devotee of nude beaches here. You could hint around for an invitation.

oh that's really interesting Forkful. I like your theory about beards.
what about the Victorians though - they were into big beards but women still did the rest of it - not make-up perhaps but the clothes were very extreme on the way they created difference.

what I have found re drawing a line, is that my line has shifted as a result of the experiment. I think the first time you actively decide not to do something you could easily do to make yourself look 'better', it breaks the spell to some extent and you realise you don't need to do a lot of the stuff you are doing. So I never meant to give up make-up (I have bad skin) but it seems to have happened.

So I'm not really on board with this project atm but I'm watching with interest. Have rather messed up feelings wrt to body/face (acne isshoos) etc. Am hoping to address said issues in the not too distant future.

I am trying to work out where I want to draw my lines wrt to "grooming/femininity".

Just occurred to me that I & DH both had cosmetic dentistry when we were children.

I am working on a model in my mind where pysical characteristics are on a bell curve and people at the outlying reaches normally want to get into the middle of the bell curve - eg I had really bad acne so my parents got treatment for me - which normalised me.

My issue is that the parameters for the 'normal' shift if eg significant %ages of women start having botox etc.

Couple of random thoughts which I am sure have been spawned by this thread and its predecessor:

DS playing with small plastic farm animals - "is this a boy or a girl Mummy?"

Me - "not sure DS they are pretty similar no -obvious genitals o show--"

Me (to myself, penny dropping) pretty similar - just like men and women - but we as humans accentuate the differences through clothing/hair/behaviour...

Plus - we don't have our genitals on show (day to day!)

Then a separate thought came to me - if men were more 'natural' like our ancestors then they would have full very very hairy beards! And the women no make up - but from a quick glance the beard thing would be a dead give away. So actually men having normalised the removal of facial hair have shifted the goal posts?

I went to a posh restaurant without make-up the other week.
Had not planned or intended it, just that when I was getting changed I decided I looked better and more 'me' without it.
I must have been the only woman in the whole place without it.
What was amazing was that I didn't feel like I wished I had it on. I would never have said a couple of months ago that I was going to give up make-up; I even wore it to MWR.
it's amazing how easy this stuff is when the moment is right, isn't it?